Geared Hub for 16" Wheels

Electrically assisted bikes, trikes, etc. that are legal in the UK
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Triker
Posts: 3
Joined: 21 Mar 2023, 1:18am

Geared Hub for 16" Wheels

Post by Triker »

Hi Guys and Gals, having a 16" wheels e-trike built for me - I hope at a bike shop in Richmond BC.
16 " because it is short, narrow and may weight a manageable 50 lbs.

I don't want derailleurs as they hang too low and out in the middle of nowhere, making them very vulnerable to damage from the cracked, broken and erupted sidewalks of Vancouver, Canada where I live, and also vulnerable to trail riding surfaces.

I'm in my 70's now - how the hell did I get here - have plaque blocked arteries in my legs plus my balance is shot hence the trike, but a desire still to peddle may ass around as much as possible.

I was thinking Alfine but there are apparently rim - spoke limitations with the 16 " wheels.
Discovered that Sturmey-Archer was bought up and the S-A products are being manufactured again, and I am after your expert advice on the choice of a hub gear for my 16 " trike - S-A or otherwise.

https://www.sturmey-archer.com/en/produ ... ail/ts-rf3
Lists the " 3 Speed Freewheel Rear Hub For Tricycle " and a LOT of information I do not understand.
My limited knowledge is - if the big cog on the block has 34 or more teeth, it means I may be able to climb - ride up hills - -
my main focus for gears.
if you would be so good as to translate for me . . .
FEATURES
• Classic 3-speed internal gear hub with gear ratio of 177% - - ? ? ?

• Gear steps of 33% and 33%

• 22 Teeth flange sprocket
• Compatible with 21 or 22 teeth sprocket - - ? ? ?

Gear Ratio
• Overall Range - 177%
• Gear 1 - 75% (Gear 2 - 25%)
• Gear 2 - 100% (Direct Drive)
• Gear 3 - 133% (Gear 2 + 33%)
so the Gear Ratio in particular - how many teeth per gear - anything close to 34 ?
the reference tho " for Tricycle " may or not be applicable to 16" wheels.

The 3 speed Hub appears to be well regarded, and there are commentators stating they prefer it over derailleurs.
My trike will be fitted with a 48v 750w Bafang motor on the front wheel and 21 ah battery, and tho I weigh, ahem, 200 or so pounds, think there is more than enough power to transport me.

Then there is the 5 speed Hub, is it as reliable as the 3 speed ? does it have any advantage for me over the 3 speed ?

TIA and cheers. Triker.
rjb
Posts: 7199
Joined: 11 Jan 2007, 10:25am
Location: Somerset (originally 60/70's Plymouth)

Re: Geared Hub for 16" Wheels

Post by rjb »

You may get a better response if you post this in the trike forum.
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/on3wheels/ :wink:
At the last count:- Peugeot 531 pro, Dawes Discovery Tandem, Dawes Kingpin X3, Raleigh 20 stowaway, 1965 Moulton deluxe, Falcon K2 MTB dropped bar tourer, Rudge Bi frame folder, Longstaff trike conversion on a Giant XTC 840 :D
stodd
Posts: 708
Joined: 6 Jun 2018, 10:24am

Re: Geared Hub for 16" Wheels

Post by stodd »

177% is quite a narrow range for hilly country. If you can fit a large enough sprocket to get decent hill climbing gears you'll be limited to quite low speeds on the flat. Of course that may well not worry you. And with the motor on the front the gears will have a pretty easy life even with the stress a large rear sprocket would put on them.
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simonineaston
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Joined: 9 May 2007, 1:06pm
Location: ...at a cricket ground

Re: Geared Hub for 16" Wheels

Post by simonineaston »

Just a very quick reaction, without having given a whole load of thought to the issue... an Alfine hub will readily fit in a 406 wheel.
S
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
rjb
Posts: 7199
Joined: 11 Jan 2007, 10:25am
Location: Somerset (originally 60/70's Plymouth)

Re: Geared Hub for 16" Wheels

Post by rjb »

This is going on a trike so may possibly not be going into a wheel. Bit more info on construction needed. :wink:
At the last count:- Peugeot 531 pro, Dawes Discovery Tandem, Dawes Kingpin X3, Raleigh 20 stowaway, 1965 Moulton deluxe, Falcon K2 MTB dropped bar tourer, Rudge Bi frame folder, Longstaff trike conversion on a Giant XTC 840 :D
Lodge
Posts: 142
Joined: 28 Feb 2016, 8:59pm
Location: Staffordshire Moorlands

Re: Geared Hub for 16" Wheels

Post by Lodge »

Hi Triker,

Even with a 16” wheel you can fit wide range hubs such as the Alfine 11 and Rohloff. I have used both on my Brompton (see below for Rohloff example). Given you are in BC you have available to you many rather interesting mountains, so having a wide range of gears, even with a motor, would be advisable. It all comes down to budget.

My wife and I had Rohloffs on the two e-trikes we used to run. Even in the hills of the English Peak District we used the full range of gears. We regularly climbed gradients of more than 20%. The UK may not have mountains like the Rockies but many roads and tracks are steep, albeit short.
5ACE3513-3610-4449-9677-58021D8C2B47.jpeg
Triker
Posts: 3
Joined: 21 Mar 2023, 1:18am

Re: Geared Hub for 16" Wheels

Post by Triker »

Lodge, what a beautiful bike
never knew Bromptons could look so good,
super clean and all ready for Halloween

did you add the chainwheel for its aesthetics ? how many teeths ?

what's that thing above the chainwheel attached to the crossbar ?

why the chain tensioner ?
are you aware of the scrape on the frame above the tensioner ? tch tch

does the Rohloff have an electronic changer/shift or is that just the Alfine ?

daren't imagine what that saddle feels when sat upon
I require something akin to an armchair


and
how do I attach an image into a post as you did with the Brompton image ?


My walking distance time-limit is around 2 minutes, then I come to a complete stop and have to wait for a usually longer period while my blood crawls thru the plaque blocked arteries in my legs in order to get re-oxygenated.
I've no idea yet how long I can peddle for.
Will not be mountaineering, really only require 3 gears, a 34 or so for what inclines I can manage, 21 ? to bridge the gap down to something around 7 - 10.
All the peddling is going to be more therapeutic exercise I think rather than cycling.

Gotta get a trike first tho. Cheers.
Lodge
Posts: 142
Joined: 28 Feb 2016, 8:59pm
Location: Staffordshire Moorlands

Re: Geared Hub for 16" Wheels

Post by Lodge »

Hi Triker,
Thanks for the compliment on the Brompton. It no longer has the Rohloff, that’s now in a Tern Vektron ebike and I’ve just put the Alfine 11 back in the Brompton. The Rohloff was running with 44:16 gearing, by the way, with a non-Brompton crankset with shorter 155 mm cranks to suit my short 29” legs. The lump on the crossbar is a folding lock. The scrape on the frame is from the crank when folding the bike. Being a non-standard Brompton (from Kinetics in Glasgow) it has wider front and rear hubs with specially made forks and rear triangle wider than standard. The cranks can’t rotate fully in the folded position and it’s easy to scratch the frame. The chain tensioner is standard Brompton and is needed to keep the chain in position when folding the bike. The Brooks saddle is very comfortable for me - in several thousand miles the leather has molded to match my derrière perfectly.

Regarding attaching an image, look for the “attachments” tab below where you type text. There is the facility to upload files and insert images in line with the text.
Carlton green
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Joined: 22 Jun 2019, 12:27pm

Re: Geared Hub for 16" Wheels

Post by Carlton green »

I’m wondering what the OP’s direction really is, just a bit more clarity needed if he is to be better helped.

Talk is of a front wheel powered hub so, to me at least, that implies the traditional form of delta trike (one wheel at the front and two at the back). That’s the simple form and loved by many, but it’s also arguably not always the best (two at the front and one at the back has its advantages too). Which form of trike is planned?

Why 16” wheels? Is it actually possible to build a powered hub 16” wheel? (Edit. It is possible.) Bigger wheels will roll better and cope with uneven surfaces better than smaller wheels. IIRC 20” is used by Pashley * and the OP seems to want to be able to travel over uneven surfaces.
16 " because it is short, narrow and may weight a manageable 50 lbs.
Well maybe but 20” will give you more options for 4” more length. Battery weight and powered hub weight will be far greater issues than frame weight. Width need be no different between the two wheel sizes, for stability what matters is the height of the rider and that’s limited by bottom bracket height … and larger wheels give more stability because they handle uneven terrain better.

If the front wheel is powered then (as the hub brake option disappears) what of brakes on the front wheel?

The traditional trike doesn’t have a hub gear in a wheel, the hub gear forms part of a power transmission chain and it is sited between the axles (see the traditional design used on Pashley Trikes *). Whether other hub gears can be, with a bit of ingenuity, used in (traditional) trikes I do not know.

With such a powerful hub motor (750 Watt) the gearing is not, I suspect, that important. The hub might provide all the thrust needed?

* No recommendation of any make intended.
Last edited by Carlton green on 25 Mar 2023, 10:14pm, edited 3 times in total.
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
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simonineaston
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Joined: 9 May 2007, 1:06pm
Location: ...at a cricket ground

Re: Geared Hub for 16" Wheels

Post by simonineaston »

is it actually possible to build a powered hub 16” wheel?
Brompton / nano are examples.
S
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
Carlton green
Posts: 3645
Joined: 22 Jun 2019, 12:27pm

Re: Geared Hub for 16" Wheels

Post by Carlton green »

simonineaston wrote: 25 Mar 2023, 9:03am
is it actually possible to build a powered hub 16” wheel?
Brompton / nano are examples.
Thanks. Never seen one in real life but yes, thinking more about it, there is an electric front wheel option for Bromptons and they use 16” wheels. Of course (?) the Brompton uses a 250 W motor and 750 W (as the OP specified) would be physically bigger, too bigger?
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
stodd
Posts: 708
Joined: 6 Jun 2018, 10:24am

Re: Geared Hub for 16" Wheels

Post by stodd »

Several people do kits for the Brompton.
Woosh are well recommended, they do a 16" Brompton kit on a Q70 motor that should be suitable for other 16" (but double-check axis width etc). I think they'll provide the motor alone if you want to build your own wheel though it doesn't show in the online shop page, just ask.

https://wooshbikes.co.uk/cart/#/categor ... -bromptons
https://wooshbikes.co.uk/?hubkits,
https://wooshbikes.co.uk/cart/#/category/uid-all (and search for Brompton).
Triker
Posts: 3
Joined: 21 Mar 2023, 1:18am

Re: Geared Hub for 16" Wheels

Post by Triker »

Wellllll, , ,

dropped the idea of 16" wheels after watching a video of a seller on a 16" wheel trike, twitch - literally and lift
one wheel 3" off the ground. I thought that that was too sensitive to be riding and went back up to 20" x 24" wheels
and purchased one on the weekend. Unfortunately I did not check before leaving the store and discovered at home
that the 48v 500w front hub motor does not have the Bafang name on it, and I am checking if the cells in the 21Ah
battery really have Samsung cells or some other lower quality, so I have not ridden it yet, except on the store parking lot.

I was surprised tho being able to peddle bike and rider 300lbs as easily as I did, however peddling will be limited to
flat and small rises.

Motoring is something else; trike and me take off like a bat out of hell and reach scary speed in no time.
Ran the trike part way into level 3 before shutting it down. Don't know what speed I reached but the idea
of getting into level 5 is slightly terrifying at present.
I did try a semi-recumbent - far more expensive and didn't like it, fortunately I didn't purchase it because it would
not have fitted into the elevator of the building I live in.
The trike is not the 'best choice' but I wanted one 'now'.
What is a best choice is any adult upright trike Must have two parts, most often this is just folding, but the
weight of these trikes is anywhere from 75lbs the lowest weight I've seen up to 110lbs. They are too awkward
to pick up by a strong man, but manageable - I think for me up to 50lbs - maybe, and removing the seat and
dropping the handlebars provides for a smaller packages into a vehicle.

Depending on the results of the Bafang and battery confirmations and if I keep this trike, I will write-up my test
rides, how will it do on the hills nearby and, if I dare ride into level 5.
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