Not pedalling

Electrically assisted bikes, trikes, etc. that are legal in the UK
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Mick F
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Re: Not pedalling

Post by Mick F »

foxyrider wrote: 23 Mar 2023, 7:34pm
Mick F wrote: 23 Mar 2023, 3:36pm Just remembering and thinking about this issue.

Riding in a city centre on shared use paths and roads and places, any rider - mechanical or electric - has to be careful of course.
I've only seen this issue in the city, so I have no idea how they would go on the open road. The main thing that is very noticeable, is that these riders are going up the hills and slopes ............ and some are hundreds of yards long .......... and not turning a crank.

Anyone who has visited Plymouth city in recent years will have seen these riders. Usually young men.
For instance, from the city centre on Royal Parade all the way UP to the station. Quite a climb even as a pedestrian.

Even leaving the station for the city centre, it's a climb up to North Rd Roundabout via the shared use paths.

Two shots of Plymouth.
I have seen many a rider going up these without turning a crank.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.37698 ... 384!8i8192

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.37232 ... 312!8i6656

I have no issue whatsoever about this.
The law is an ass and needs to be re-written.
have you got the right places? look like 2 almost pan flat spots to me!
Yes, I have.
Trouble with Google Streeview, it tends to flatten out the hills.

Back shortly with a profile of the hill city centre to station. I'll need to change computers to access my Ascent app records. This new MacBook won't run the old Ascent app.
Mick F. Cornwall
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Mick F
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Re: Not pedalling

Post by Mick F »

Here is the profile.
City centre up to North Rd and down to the station.

I have seen riders not turning the cranks going to the station area and coming away.

The profile is from my Garmin riding Moulton last time I was in Plymouth riding, late last year.
Screen Shot 2023-03-24 at 09.24.55.png
Mick F. Cornwall
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Re: Not pedalling

Post by rjb »

:roll: BTW did you collect some of that firewood that suddenly became available. :twisted:
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Nearholmer
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Re: Not pedalling

Post by Nearholmer »

I’m still none the wiser about why the existence of hills should precipitate a change in he law.
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Re: Not pedalling

Post by stodd »

Nearholmer wrote: 24 Mar 2023, 12:00pm I’m still none the wiser about why the existence of hills should precipitate a change in he law.
Probably because the law is so out of date that the hills weren't there when it was made.
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Re: Not pedalling

Post by Nearholmer »

So, what is it the people want to change?
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Re: Not pedalling

Post by stodd »

Nearholmer wrote: 24 Mar 2023, 12:50pm So, what is it the people want to change?
Different people want different changes, all to broaden what is classed as a pedelec that can be ridden on road, bridle paths etc with the same lack of restrictions (insurance, registration, plates, helmets, etc) that push bikes have.

No need to pedal to have assistance.
Assistance up to 20 mph.
More power than 250w.

The rules about 'continuous/nominal' power leave so much to random data engraved on the motor by the manufacturer the last one is almost irrelevant.

For me, it seems fine as it is, though I can see the points, especially 'no need to pedal' for people with certain limitations such as arthritis.
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Re: Not pedalling

Post by Nearholmer »

I stick by the personal test I laid out several posts back, around “human emulation”, which I think in practice would probably result in the power and speed restrictions remaining, but might remove the pedalling obligation.

Bridleways are an interesting sub issue, because many of them are so vulnerable, in the winter especially, so even a continuous 250W on rufty-tufty tyres can leave severe damage. I tend to think that the best protection for them might be to put in place the requirement to get exhausted by riding over them by human power alone ….. that soon enough caps the effective power output! It’s not as f most of them provide vital travel links in the C21st either, their use is almost wholly recreational.
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Mick F
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Re: Not pedalling

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I suppose my point is that I can ride up those hills in the city centre as fast (if not quicker) than the riders on modified electric bikes.

They are putting zero effort, and I'd be putting in lots of effort!
No complaints from me other than that they are breaking the law ............. and the law is wrong IMHO.

How they've modified their bikes, I don't know, but it would be a software hack or a hardware hack.
Next time I'm in the city on my bike, I may follow one of these riders and if the opportunity arrises, I'll ask .......... nicely, and in all innocence. :wink:

Trouble is, it's a city ............ and city dwellers are quite different to us chatty country dwellers. They may not kindly accept a 70 year old chap asking (pointed) questions. I'll give it a go though.

May be a month or so before I ride to Plymouth.
Good ride from here is to Tavistock and then join Route 27 down the old GWR rail-bed and then through the city centre.
Mick F. Cornwall
Jdsk
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Re: Not pedalling

Post by Jdsk »

Mick F wrote: 24 Mar 2023, 3:36pm ...
No complaints from me other than that they are breaking the law ............. and the law is wrong IMHO.
...
In what way do you think that the law is wrong?

Thanks

Jonathan
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Re: Not pedalling

Post by foxyrider »

Mick F wrote: 24 Mar 2023, 3:36pm

They are putting zero effort, and I'd be putting in lots of effort!
No complaints from me other than that they are breaking the law ............. and the law is wrong IMHO.
The only thing wrong with the law is.....that no one is enforcing it.

If you allowed more speed/power there would be people pushing that limit, there is a part of society that will always want more beyond any restriction. Only allowed 3 cucumbers, well i want 10, 70mph on the motorway, my car can do 100. The law is quite simple, if you need to pedal, its a bike, if you don't its a motorcycle - its in the name!

In the real world, most cycle users don't ride at 20mph everywhere and 25mph for more than a few metres is beyond most peoples capabilities, the current restrictions reflect that.
Convention? what's that then?
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Mick F
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Re: Not pedalling

Post by Mick F »

I agree if they were legalised, people would push it further and further.
I also agree that the issue with the law, is that it's not enforced, but it's difficult to police it. Maybe they need police traps, but then the riders would just pedal if they saw a copper, and not be breaking the law!

These riders are causing no problems to themselves or to the general public. I can ride at their speed where they ride, so what's the difference?

It's a pointless law IMO.
Mick F. Cornwall
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Re: Not pedalling

Post by Nearholmer »

One small purpose that the “pedalling” law does serve is to allow one to tell a moped from a bike very easily: going up hill without pedalling = moped.
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Re: Not pedalling

Post by Vantage »

I'm with Mick on this.
Unpowered, I can only pedal along at maybe 10mph for extended periods. Should motorised bikes be limited to 10mph in that case?
If a person rides their bike down a hill at 25mph, should they be castrated for using gravity as an aid?
Sounds stupid doesn't it?
And then there's the debate about what makes a bike a motorbike. That's simple. No motor = bicycle. Motor assistance = motorbike. There's no arguing this. It's a bike. It has a motor. It's a motorbike.
Do we now ban these things unless the bike and user is licensed, registered and insured? I hope.not.
I quite enjoy riding my 750w powered touring bike easily capable of 25mph under throttle alone. It means I'm more able to keep up with the pace of traffic and so less prone to close passes. Richard Balantine stated that in his book.
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Re: Not pedalling

Post by Nearholmer »

We’re back on the same old track: if people want to ride electric mopeds on the road, fine and dandy; if people want to do so in breach of the current law, less fine and dandy because if they cause an accident to others they are an uninsured bl@@dy nuisance, although I’ll admit that the probability of that happening is very low; if they want to ride them on shared-use paths, totally not fine and dandy at all, because the capability of the machines will result in less powerful users, walkers, pedal-cyclists, mobility scooter users etc, being “bullied off”, just as the capability difference between motor vehicles and bikes has caused all but the hardiest cyclists to be effectively “bullied off” many roads.

For use on shared paths, any e-help needs to be limited to “human emulator” level, which the present e-bike laws attempt, rather crudely, to achieve.

If people want a liberalisation of the moped laws, to dispense with the need for insurance, registration, and a helmet, let them campaign honestly for that, rather than mix the discussion up with cycling, and let them come up with a truly viable way of keeping mopeds off of shared paths.
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