Not pedalling

Electrically assisted bikes, trikes, etc. that are legal in the UK
User avatar
Vantage
Posts: 3074
Joined: 24 Jan 2012, 1:44pm
Location: somewhere in Bolton
Contact:

Re: Not pedalling

Post by Vantage »

Nonsense. Why is a non powered cyclist any less of a non insured bl@@dy nuisance than a powered one?
As for bullying other less powerful users of shared use paths etc, also rubbish. Cyclists have been bullied off the roads due to the sheer size and weight of motorized vehicles. Not their speed. An ebike is only a few kilos heavier than a standard bike and no bigger. If that's your take on things, would you also take a dislike to 3 wheeled bikes and fully laden touring bikes?
The injuries sustained to a user or third party from an ebike rider are exactly the same as a 'normal' bike and as such the chances taken on such a bike are exactly the same.
The issue is idiots. Not the bikes.
People wanted to ban mountain bikes when they first came out because people were apparently riding through other people's back yards and tearing up bridleways. Common sense prevailed thankfully.
Please try to be a little more open minded.
Bill


“Ride as much or as little, or as long or as short as you feel. But ride.” ~ Eddy Merckx
It's a rich man whos children run to him when his pockets are empty.
Jdsk
Posts: 25784
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Not pedalling

Post by Jdsk »

foxyrider wrote: 24 Mar 2023, 8:52pm ...
In the real world, most cycle users don't ride at 20mph everywhere and 25mph for more than a few metres is beyond most peoples capabilities, the current restrictions reflect that.
Nearholmer wrote: 26 Mar 2023, 9:33am For use on shared paths, any e-help needs to be limited to “human emulator” level, which the present e-bike laws attempt, rather crudely, to achieve.
The current laws are a compromise. And they are crude.

But I share (!) that concern about what would happen if they were changed in a way that resulted in a lot more fast traffic in shared use spaces.

It would help if those who favour a change could state that desired change. There might be different responses if it were only about throttles and the need to pedal than about limits on speed for assistance or power of assistance.

Jonathan
Nearholmer
Posts: 4247
Joined: 26 Mar 2022, 7:13am

Re: Not pedalling

Post by Nearholmer »

I said that the issue around being uninsured was a matter of low probability, so we probably aren’t that far apart on that point.

The shared use path issue isn’t about weight, after all a really heavy bloke on a bike is, well ….. heavy. It’s about capability, installed power effectively.

And, yes, of course it’s about the rider not the machine, after all, a very careful and responsible bod could possibly safely share a path while riding a Kawasaki Z750, but the proportion of the population who get a bit too carried away once they’ve got a powerful machine between their legs is sufficient to require restrictions.

Pretty well all restrictive laws exist to control the actions of what you term “idiots”, which in practice means that proportion of the population that at any moment is comfortable taking a lot of risks, is more or less selfish, and/or more or less aggressive. We wouldn’t need laws against murder, theft, carrying of weapons in public places, or a host of other things if everybody always played nicely together.

So, unless someone can come up with a mechanism to keep certain people, or even all people if they are in certain moods, off of shared paths, the best proxy is to limit the capability of the machines allowed on them.

We’ve been through this debate before incidentally, with petrol mopeds …,. The only difference this time round is that the electric ones aren’t noisy, and don’t trail a cloud of two-stroke exhaust.
Last edited by Nearholmer on 26 Mar 2023, 10:16am, edited 1 time in total.
Jdsk
Posts: 25784
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Not pedalling

Post by Jdsk »

Nearholmer wrote: 26 Mar 2023, 10:08am ...
The shared use path issue isn’t about weight, after all a really heavy bloke on a bike is, well ….. heavy. It’s about capability, installed power effectively.

And, yes, of course it’s about the rider not the machine, after all, a very careful and responsible bod could possibly safely share a path while riding a Kawasaki Z750, but the proportion of the population who get a bit too carried away once they’ve got a powerful machine between their legs is sufficient to require restrictions.

Pretty well all restrictive laws exist to control the actions of what you term “idiots”, which in practice means that proportion of the population that at any moment is comfortable taking a lot of risks, is more or less selfish, and/or more or less aggressive. We wouldn’t need laws against murder, theft, carrying of weapons in public places, or a host of other things if everybody always played nicely together.

So, unless someone can come up with a mechanism to keep certain people, or even all people if they are in certain moods, off of shared paths, the best proxy is to limit the capability of the machines allowed on them.
Yes, it's about likely effects in the real world.

Jonathan
UpWrong
Posts: 2476
Joined: 31 May 2009, 12:16pm
Location: Portsmouth, Hampshire

Re: Not pedalling

Post by UpWrong »

full throttle bikes can be fully legal in the uk if they have been type approved as :L1e vehicles, https://wisperbikes.com/full-throttle-option/

so the law isn't such an ass anymore!
stodd
Posts: 715
Joined: 6 Jun 2018, 10:24am

Re: Not pedalling

Post by stodd »

UpWrong wrote: 26 Mar 2023, 11:08am full throttle bikes can be fully legal in the uk if they have been type approved as :L1e vehicles, https://wisperbikes.com/full-throttle-option/

so the law isn't such an ass anymore!
I think that technically they are still not type approved, but each bike still has to be independently approved.
(From my memory of a post by Wisper on the Pedelecs website; I could have misinterpreted it or remembered wrong.
They've arranged fairly small batch approval with a local testing station.)

Not that important, comes to pretty much the same thing for the end buyer.
UpWrong
Posts: 2476
Joined: 31 May 2009, 12:16pm
Location: Portsmouth, Hampshire

Re: Not pedalling

Post by UpWrong »

stodd wrote: 26 Mar 2023, 1:25pm
UpWrong wrote: 26 Mar 2023, 11:08am full throttle bikes can be fully legal in the uk if they have been type approved as :L1e vehicles, https://wisperbikes.com/full-throttle-option/

so the law isn't such an ass anymore!
I think that technically they are still not type approved, but each bike still has to be independently approved.
(From my memory of a post by Wisper on the Pedelecs website; I could have misinterpreted it or remembered wrong.
They've arranged fairly small batch approval with a local testing station.)

Not that important, comes to pretty much the same thing for the end buyer.
You're right. Each bike gets approved and it costs another £200.
Manc33
Posts: 2258
Joined: 25 Apr 2015, 9:37pm

Re: Not pedalling

Post by Manc33 »

They must have 1000W+ or very overworked controller boxes. Were they doing about 2 MPH? :lol:
We'll always be together, together on electric bikes.
User avatar
Mick F
Spambuster
Posts: 56369
Joined: 7 Jan 2007, 11:24am
Location: Tamar Valley, Cornwall

Re: Not pedalling

Post by Mick F »

In Plymouth on Saturday ........................ a couple of days ago.

I saw two or three riders going up the hill up Amarda Way to North Road roundabout.
Hill, and not pedalling at all.
None of them were Deliveroo riders.

It's a low-gear hill for people of a "real" bike.
Mick F. Cornwall
re_cycler
Posts: 236
Joined: 13 Dec 2022, 7:18pm

Re: Not pedalling

Post by re_cycler »

Is it purely a case that the pedals need to be rotated, even if there is no effort used, to meet the legal requirement ?
George goodyear
Posts: 16
Joined: 3 Jan 2024, 7:45am

Re: Not pedalling

Post by George goodyear »

Mick F wrote: 25 Mar 2024, 5:03pm In Plymouth on Saturday ........................ a couple of days ago.

I saw two or three riders going up the hill up Amarda Way to North Road roundabout.
Hill, and not pedalling at all.
None of them were Deliveroo riders.

It's a low-gear hill for people of a "real" bike.
They should be lashed to the mast and flogged!
PH
Posts: 13175
Joined: 21 Jan 2007, 12:31am
Location: Derby
Contact:

Re: Not pedalling

Post by PH »

re_cycler wrote: 25 Mar 2024, 5:38pm Is it purely a case that the pedals need to be rotated, even if there is no effort used, to meet the legal requirement ?
The EAPC classification states that cycles need to have pedals fitted that are capable of propelling them. There's nothing that stipulates how much effort the rider must contribute while being electrically assisted, so you do get bikes where the contribution from the rider's pedalling is negligible.
re_cycler
Posts: 236
Joined: 13 Dec 2022, 7:18pm

Re: Not pedalling

Post by re_cycler »

PH wrote: 26 Mar 2024, 8:00am
re_cycler wrote: 25 Mar 2024, 5:38pm Is it purely a case that the pedals need to be rotated, even if there is no effort used, to meet the legal requirement ?
The EAPC classification states that cycles need to have pedals fitted that are capable of propelling them. There's nothing that stipulates how much effort the rider must contribute while being electrically assisted, so you do get bikes where the contribution from the rider's pedalling is negligible.
So in reality a foot operated throttle ?
Maybe add a little friction into the drive train and the pedals would just rotate on their own :D
Jdsk
Posts: 25784
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Not pedalling

Post by Jdsk »

Mick F wrote: 22 Mar 2023, 3:33pm We were in Plymouth yesterday, and there are riders about on electric bikes.
There are hills, and none of them were turning the cranks at all. Must have seen half a dozen in half an hour.
Even riders delivering Deliveroo stuff ........... not pedalling at all up hills.

Therefore, these riders are riding electric vehicles.

No complaint from me BTW and I'm all for it, it's the law that's wrong.
My emboldening.

What changes should be made to the law?

Thanks

Jonathan

PS: Current consultation on changes, closes on 25 April 2024:
https://www.gov.uk/government/consultat ... dal-cycles
viewtopic.php?p=1831581#p1831581
User avatar
simonineaston
Posts: 8176
Joined: 9 May 2007, 1:06pm
Location: ...at a cricket ground

Re: Not pedalling

Post by simonineaston »

Some observations on this topic.
I’ve chatted to lots of the delivery guys. Many speak English as a second language, some are living & working (hard!) here without the right paperwork. I’m not judging them - my interest is in the state of e-bike legislation.
Lots of them are rented their bikes by a local boss. Lots of them even rent the phones, with the necessary app on it. This combination of circumstances is ripe for exploitation. Lots of them operate under difficult working conditions (which is putting it mildly). The number of drops is key to them and their bosses being able to make money, thus it's a given that the cycle’s motor & battery systems are hacked for power. This all makes for a high risk working environment one way and another.
And yet at the same time, police services have limited resources and have to cut their coats to suit the cloth. Food delivery is booming and seen by those who benefit as an important cog in the economy. Business elements don't want the boat rocked. While reported numbers of accidents stay lowish, there’s no leverage to address legislation or tighten up policing. The poor folks who stand to lose most ie the guys out in all weathers, working long hours for rubbish money, on the knackered e-bikes which they pay LOTS to use, are politically invisible. They are in many cases, virtually slave labour…
So think of that next time you’re tempted to order a burger on deliveroo.
S
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
Post Reply