Latest immigration ploy!

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Tangled Metal
Posts: 9505
Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: Latest immigration ploy!

Post by Tangled Metal »

pete75 wrote: 28 Mar 2023, 4:11pm
Tangled Metal wrote: 28 Mar 2023, 1:46pm A good nurse is a good nurse but IME that isn't certain with overseas nurses. All foreign nurses we've had contact with have had issues shall we say. Similar with GPs.

Nurses that couldn't read the notes and often looked up the wrong notes despite reading the hospital wrist ID. Or the gp that nobody could understand that only lasted a week. Or the nurse that put the infection control sample in the clinical waste bin then got it out and sent it off for testing. That probably explained how the new born never showed any signs of infection but tests came back with high infection levels.

I'm not often in hospital but I've encountered seriously poor foreign recruited medical staff in those visits. So I'm of the opinion that it's better to recruit from UK. Not least for better quality personnel but also because we're not depriving poorer countries of their own medical staff having paid out to train them. That last is one very good reason that most should agree with.
So you think this obviously sub-standard medic shouldn't have come from Egypt to work here. https://www.imperial.ac.uk/people/nagy.habib
Sorry but never had experience of his services so can't comment directly. But if his bio is correct then he had spent some time here and he competent. My point was only that I've encountered enough nurses recruited from overseas with serious issues to prefer that we recruited and trained from the UK. I have not said at any point that all foreign medical staff are of concern just the most of the ones I've had to deal with. That isn't their fault but the fault of recruitment process. My complaint is really that recruitment systems aren't fit for purpose so perhaps that's just one reason to change from it to train from here. The other big reason is denuding foreign health systems of home grown staff.

BTW talented and experienced medical professionals have a lot of value changing countries. UK trained staff also go to other countries hopefully to benefit those countries. But that isn't what I'm talking about. I'm about the lower levels of each medical roles (nursing an even early career doctors).
roubaixtuesday
Posts: 5815
Joined: 18 Aug 2015, 7:05pm

Re: Latest immigration ploy!

Post by roubaixtuesday »

Tangled Metal wrote: 28 Mar 2023, 11:47pm
roubaixtuesday wrote: 28 Mar 2023, 3:51pm
Tangled Metal wrote: 28 Mar 2023, 1:46pm
All foreign nurses we've had contact with have had issues shall we say. Similar with GPs.
My bold. I'm assuming this is rhetorical hyperbole. I certainly hope so.
Sorry but not hyperbole. All foreign nurses we've had dealings with have had us concerned for one reason or another.

There was also an Irish sounding sister who had the empathy of a psychopath but she could have been northern Irish no not exactly foreign.

I'm not bothered if you don't believe me and it's not racism or other prejudice if that's what you think...
I'm sorry, but if you have had more than a minimal interaction with the NHS and your experience is that *all* have "issues" then yes, it's pretty hard to believe that's anything other than prejudice, given it's not remotely the experience of anyone else.

Why is your experience so different to anyone else's if not about your own attitude?
pwa
Posts: 17371
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Latest immigration ploy!

Post by pwa »

I can't comment on TM's experiences with NHS staff from abroad. Perhaps there are issues at his particular NHS trust. But the foreign origin NHS nurses dealing with my elderly parents at varous times over the last 10 years have been good, as far as I can tell, seeming both professional and caring. I have heard accounts (from within) of foreign doctors being employed without adequate vetting, and then being found to lack competence, but I have put that down to failures in vetting. We ourselves had prolonged experience of the services of a South Asian born oncologist, and he oozed professionalism and competence. A very impressive individual. I'd want him in charge again if any of my loved ones needed that kind of help.

But back to the idea of keeping asylum seekers on disused cruise ships whilst awaiting processing. Okay, a cruise ship is a floating hotel, and has the potential to be comfortable. And it frees up real hotels so that they can resume their role in the tourist industry. All good so far. But would these ships be as well kept as they were when they were taking paying passengers? Would they be clean and pleasant with good plumbing? I have my doubts on that. And any ship I have ever been on has left me feeling trapped after the first few hours. After a week it would be feeling like a prison. Would the occupants be allowed onshore for walks? I'd hope so.

Another problem with this option is that it isolates asylum seekers from UK communities that could otherwise be offering support. I know locally, Ukrainian refugees have had a lot of community support, which continues today. Relationships have formed between refugees and local people. That has to be healthier, for the refugees and for the rest of us, than having them separated, a few metres offshore.
pete75
Posts: 16370
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Latest immigration ploy!

Post by pete75 »

Tangled Metal wrote: 29 Mar 2023, 12:03am
pete75 wrote: 28 Mar 2023, 4:11pm
Tangled Metal wrote: 28 Mar 2023, 1:46pm A good nurse is a good nurse but IME that isn't certain with overseas nurses. All foreign nurses we've had contact with have had issues shall we say. Similar with GPs.

Nurses that couldn't read the notes and often looked up the wrong notes despite reading the hospital wrist ID. Or the gp that nobody could understand that only lasted a week. Or the nurse that put the infection control sample in the clinical waste bin then got it out and sent it off for testing. That probably explained how the new born never showed any signs of infection but tests came back with high infection levels.

I'm not often in hospital but I've encountered seriously poor foreign recruited medical staff in those visits. So I'm of the opinion that it's better to recruit from UK. Not least for better quality personnel but also because we're not depriving poorer countries of their own medical staff having paid out to train them. That last is one very good reason that most should agree with.
So you think this obviously sub-standard medic shouldn't have come from Egypt to work here. https://www.imperial.ac.uk/people/nagy.habib
Sorry but never had experience of his services so can't comment directly. But if his bio is correct then he had spent some time here and he competent. My point was only that I've encountered enough nurses recruited from overseas with serious issues to prefer that we recruited and trained from the UK. I have not said at any point that all foreign medical staff are of concern just the most of the ones I've had to deal with. That isn't their fault but the fault of recruitment process. My complaint is really that recruitment systems aren't fit for purpose so perhaps that's just one reason to change from it to train from here. The other big reason is denuding foreign health systems of home grown staff.

BTW talented and experienced medical professionals have a lot of value changing countries. UK trained staff also go to other countries hopefully to benefit those countries. But that isn't what I'm talking about. I'm about the lower levels of each medical roles (nursing an even early career doctors).
What you said was all the foreign medical staff you've had dealings with " All foreign nurses we've had contact with have had issues shall we say. Similar with GPs. ". Strange how the health care systems in countries like Germany and France are superior to that in the UK, despite being staffed almost entirely by "foreign trained staff".
Wonder how much those "issues" are caused by your own attitude - a bit of confirmation bias at work perhaps.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
Tangled Metal
Posts: 9505
Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: Latest immigration ploy!

Post by Tangled Metal »

roubaixtuesday wrote: 29 Mar 2023, 6:58am
Tangled Metal wrote: 28 Mar 2023, 11:47pm
roubaixtuesday wrote: 28 Mar 2023, 3:51pm

My bold. I'm assuming this is rhetorical hyperbole. I certainly hope so.
Sorry but not hyperbole. All foreign nurses we've had dealings with have had us concerned for one reason or another.

There was also an Irish sounding sister who had the empathy of a psychopath but she could have been northern Irish no not exactly foreign.

I'm not bothered if you don't believe me and it's not racism or other prejudice if that's what you think...
I'm sorry, but if you have had more than a minimal interaction with the NHS and your experience is that *all* have "issues" then yes, it's pretty hard to believe that's anything other than prejudice, given it's not remotely the experience of anyone else.

Why is your experience so different to anyone else's if not about your own attitude?
You're making a correlation that's not there. Because you haven't experienced what I have means that I haven't so must be making a racist comment. What makes you so sure that your assumption is valid. Have you evidence I'm making it up or am racist?

You obviously don't believe me, your right but then to effectively accuse me of racism is offensive. I've been brought up in a household in the 70s that was a mix of traditional and progressive. Traditional married with 2 kids, house, car, etc. However my mum was one of the earliest graduates of OU and used as part of their earliest promotion due to her being a working mother and social sciences graduate. I was strongly taught anti racism at a time when racism was the norm..As a result it's deeply ingrained in me.

Besides what I'm saying is nothing about the people from other countries but about their competency. That's an easy thing to determine. Samples handled with poor hygiene (possibly due to hours worked), issues with basic identity checks to identify correct medical notes, etc. All have nothing to do with race or prejudice just observed issues that were possibly due to training issues. A systemic defect was present imho that wasn't present with the UK nationals we encountered as clients at those few times.
roubaixtuesday
Posts: 5815
Joined: 18 Aug 2015, 7:05pm

Re: Latest immigration ploy!

Post by roubaixtuesday »

Tangled Metal wrote: 29 Mar 2023, 4:44pm
roubaixtuesday wrote: 29 Mar 2023, 6:58am
Tangled Metal wrote: 28 Mar 2023, 11:47pm

Sorry but not hyperbole. All foreign nurses we've had dealings with have had us concerned for one reason or another.

There was also an Irish sounding sister who had the empathy of a psychopath but she could have been northern Irish no not exactly foreign.

I'm not bothered if you don't believe me and it's not racism or other prejudice if that's what you think...
I'm sorry, but if you have had more than a minimal interaction with the NHS and your experience is that *all* have "issues" then yes, it's pretty hard to believe that's anything other than prejudice, given it's not remotely the experience of anyone else.

Why is your experience so different to anyone else's if not about your own attitude?
You're making a correlation that's not there. Because you haven't experienced what I have means that I haven't so must be making a racist comment. What makes you so sure that your assumption is valid. Have you evidence I'm making it up or am racist?

You obviously don't believe me, your right but then to effectively accuse me of racism is offensive. I've been brought up in a household in the 70s that was a mix of traditional and progressive. Traditional married with 2 kids, house, car, etc. However my mum was one of the earliest graduates of OU and used as part of their earliest promotion due to her being a working mother and social sciences graduate. I was strongly taught anti racism at a time when racism was the norm..As a result it's deeply ingrained in me.

Besides what I'm saying is nothing about the people from other countries but about their competency. That's an easy thing to determine. Samples handled with poor hygiene (possibly due to hours worked), issues with basic identity checks to identify correct medical notes, etc. All have nothing to do with race or prejudice just observed issues that were possibly due to training issues. A systemic defect was present imho that wasn't present with the UK nationals we encountered as clients at those few times.
You're the only person on here who has not met a single foreign healthcare worker who you deem not to have "issues"; "issues" you don't detect in UK born staff.

Either you have many, multiple absolutely unique and special experiences with NHS staff, and only foreign born ones, or these "issues" come from within you, rather than the healthcare workers you interact with.

It's not a matter of whether I believe you or not, the former is completely implausible.

I can't help you with the offence this causes you, it's simply factual.
reohn2
Posts: 45159
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Latest immigration ploy!

Post by reohn2 »

RT
The truth can be stranger than fiction,and it is quite possible that TM has had those experiences,a series of coincidences are possible.
FWIW I've always found TM to be a well balanced forum member who speaks as he finds so I find his story,though unusual,truthful.

FWIW I've had foreign nationals treat me in hospital on a few occasions and I can't fault their professionalism and their capabilities.
That said I have also had one consultant of foreign extract who I felt I had to complain to the NHS trust where he worked,and I was treated,for his complete lack of acceptable bedside manner and total arrogance and unprofessionalism in dealing with me.
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
roubaixtuesday
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Joined: 18 Aug 2015, 7:05pm

Re: Latest immigration ploy!

Post by roubaixtuesday »

reohn2 wrote: 29 Mar 2023, 5:36pm RT
The truth can be stranger than fiction,and it is quite possible that TM has had those experiences,a series of coincidences are possible.
FWIW I've always found TM to be a well balanced forum member who speaks as he finds so I find his story,though unusual,truthful.

FWIW I've had foreign nationals treat me in hospital on a few occasions and I can't fault their professionalism and their capabilities.
That said I have also had one consultant of foreign extract who I felt I had to complain to the NHS trust where he worked,and I was treated,for his complete lack of acceptable bedside manner and total arrogance and unprofessionalism in dealing with me.
I have no doubt TM sincerely holds the views expressed.
pwa
Posts: 17371
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Latest immigration ploy!

Post by pwa »

From my experience of TM I am inclined to believe that although his encounters with NHS staff of foreign origin have been less positive than my own, he speaks honestly and without a racist agenda. It could just be that his own NHS trust has done some dodgy recruiting.
reohn2
Posts: 45159
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Latest immigration ploy!

Post by reohn2 »

roubaixtuesday wrote: 29 Mar 2023, 8:18pm I have no doubt TM sincerely holds the views expressed.
Yet you claim:-
Either you have many, multiple absolutely unique and special experiences with NHS staff, and only foreign born ones, or these "issues" come from within you, rather than the healthcare workers you interact with.

It's not a matter of whether I believe you or not, the former is completely implausible
So you doubt his experience?
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
roubaixtuesday
Posts: 5815
Joined: 18 Aug 2015, 7:05pm

Re: Latest immigration ploy!

Post by roubaixtuesday »

reohn2 wrote: 30 Mar 2023, 9:16am
roubaixtuesday wrote: 29 Mar 2023, 8:18pm I have no doubt TM sincerely holds the views expressed.
Yet you claim:-
Either you have many, multiple absolutely unique and special experiences with NHS staff, and only foreign born ones, or these "issues" come from within you, rather than the healthcare workers you interact with.

It's not a matter of whether I believe you or not, the former is completely implausible
So you doubt his experience?
I don't think those quotes are at all contradictory, and I've nothing to add to them.
Jdsk
Posts: 24640
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Latest immigration ploy!

Post by Jdsk »

roubaixtuesday wrote: 28 Mar 2023, 4:48pm
Jdsk wrote: 28 Mar 2023, 3:55pm
roubaixtuesday wrote: 28 Mar 2023, 3:51pmI certainly agree with that. Another reason Brexit was bad - we will now be recruiting an even higher proportion of our medical staff from developing countries.
The recruitment of healthcare staff from red list countries has already increased. Tenfold for nurses!
https://www.rcn.org.uk/news-and-events/ ... ies-090622
Yup.

The Iron Law of Brexit.
viewtopic.php?p=1763542#p1763542

Jonathan
reohn2
Posts: 45159
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Latest immigration ploy!

Post by reohn2 »

roubaixtuesday wrote: 30 Mar 2023, 9:26am
reohn2 wrote: 30 Mar 2023, 9:16am
roubaixtuesday wrote: 29 Mar 2023, 8:18pm I have no doubt TM sincerely holds the views expressed.
Yet you claim:-
Either you have many, multiple absolutely unique and special experiences with NHS staff, and only foreign born ones, or these "issues" come from within you, rather than the healthcare workers you interact with.

It's not a matter of whether I believe you or not, the former is completely implausible
So you doubt his experience?
I don't think those quotes are at all contradictory, and I've nothing to add to them.
implausible,meaning:-
(of an argument or statement) not seeming reasonable or probable; failing to convince.

We either believe and well balanced individual with a track record of honesty and truthfulness on the forum and give him the benefit any reasonable we might have or we don't.
Personally I prefer to believe TM in this instant until he's proven otherwise,which is unlikely/impossible.
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
roubaixtuesday
Posts: 5815
Joined: 18 Aug 2015, 7:05pm

Re: Latest immigration ploy!

Post by roubaixtuesday »

reohn2 wrote: 30 Mar 2023, 12:25pm
roubaixtuesday wrote: 30 Mar 2023, 9:26am
reohn2 wrote: 30 Mar 2023, 9:16am
Yet you claim:-


So you doubt his experience?
I don't think those quotes are at all contradictory, and I've nothing to add to them.
implausible,meaning:-
(of an argument or statement) not seeming reasonable or probable; failing to convince.

We either believe and well balanced individual with a track record of honesty and truthfulness on the forum and give him the benefit any reasonable we might have or we don't.
Personally I prefer to believe TM in this instant until he's proven otherwise,which is unlikely/impossible.
These things are not contradictory
reohn2
Posts: 45159
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Latest immigration ploy!

Post by reohn2 »

roubaixtuesday wrote: 30 Mar 2023, 12:28pm
reohn2 wrote: 30 Mar 2023, 12:25pm
roubaixtuesday wrote: 30 Mar 2023, 9:26am

I don't think those quotes are at all contradictory, and I've nothing to add to them.
implausible,meaning:-
(of an argument or statement) not seeming reasonable or probable; failing to convince.

We either believe and well balanced individual with a track record of honesty and truthfulness on the forum and give him the benefit any reasonable we might have or we don't.
Personally I prefer to believe TM in this instant until he's proven otherwise,which is unlikely/impossible.
These things are not contradictory
You simply don't believe him,
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
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