Latest immigration ploy!

[pwa]

Speaking just for myself, I have never expected the Tories to have all the answers regarding migration, or anything else for that matter. Brexit supplied us with one key control over migration. But on its own that is not enough. We also need investment in our labour force, in training and attractive career structures, so that current UK residents want to become nurses or whatever, and have easy access to training. Only when things like that are in place can we become less dependent on imported talent. It is complicated and long term, and I don't think the Tories have even started the job.

Personally I care little where a nurse is from as long as she is competent and has a good manner dealing with patients. You obviously do.

On the day, no, I don't care where a nurse is from. A good nurse is a good nurse. But going into the future, I'd like the profession to become once again one that people aspire to, and are willing to train for and stick with. So that the need to import nursing talent decreases. As things are, importing talent has been an alternative to fixing the profession.

[[XAP]Bob]

I agree that inward migration and outward migration need to be brought closer to a balance, but you seem to be assuming that the high inward migration is due to asylum seekers, which is what we are talking about here. Is that the case? Or is the imbalance due more to other forms of immigration?

The government disagree - inward migration is necessary for the function of our country.

You fall into the trap of discussing what to do with asylum seekers as if you are discussing what to do with all immigrants. Those are two separate but related issues. When they get conflated it results in asylum seekers being blamed for housing shortages, which is wrong when you consider that asylum applications per year are in the tens of thousands, not the hundreds of thousands.

Not at all...

You said "I agree that inward migration and outward migration need to be brought closer to a balance", and then discussed the difference between immigration and asylum.

The government disagree with you - we need more immigration than we currently have. That's nothing to do with asylum at all, purely our immigration policy.

[Jdsk]

The use of hotels is a poor option anyway. It isn't great for those housed that way, and it deprives small tourism-dependent communities of tourists, with adverse effects on other businesses nearby. Three things are needed to get a grip on this. Firstly, a process for claiming asylum that can be accessed in France and other non-UK locations. Secondly, greater capacity in claim processing. And thirdly, a programme of building to provide decent medium term accommodation. The latter should be alongside a much larger programme of building social housing for established UK residents, to counter narratives about foreigners jumping the queue for homes.

Totally agree with those three actions up to the last phrase. Those narratives aren't driven by facts or numbers, and the relevant sentiments will continue regardless.

Jonathan

[pwa]

The use of hotels is a poor option anyway. It isn't great for those housed that way, and it deprives small tourism-dependent communities of tourists, with adverse effects on other businesses nearby. Three things are needed to get a grip on this. Firstly, a process for claiming asylum that can be accessed in France and other non-UK locations. Secondly, greater capacity in claim processing. And thirdly, a programme of building to provide decent medium term accommodation. The latter should be alongside a much larger programme of building social housing for established UK residents, to counter narratives about foreigners jumping the queue for homes.

Totally agree with those three actions up to the last phrase. Those narratives aren't driven by facts or numbers, and the relevant sentiments will continue regardless.

Jonathan

I am sure you are right about that, but that view will gain less traction if people can see that new social housing for local people is appearing at the same time as asylum seekers are getting proper accommodation.

[Tangled Metal]

A good nurse is a good nurse but IME that isn't certain with overseas nurses. All foreign nurses we've had contact with have had issues shall we say. Similar with GPs.

Nurses that couldn't read the notes and often looked up the wrong notes despite reading the hospital wrist ID. Or the gp that nobody could understand that only lasted a week. Or the nurse that put the infection control sample in the clinical waste bin then got it out and sent it off for testing. That probably explained how the new born never showed any signs of infection but tests came back with high infection levels.

I'm not often in hospital but I've encountered seriously poor foreign recruited medical staff in those visits. So I'm of the opinion that it's better to recruit from UK. Not least for better quality personnel but also because we're not depriving poorer countries of their own medical staff having paid out to train them. That last is one very good reason that most should agree with.

[roubaixtuesday]

All foreign nurses we've had contact with have had issues shall we say. Similar with GPs.

My bold. I'm assuming this is rhetorical hyperbole. I certainly hope so.

...because we're not depriving poorer countries of their own medical staff having paid out to train them. That last is one very good reason that most should agree with.

I certainly agree with that. Another reason Brexit was bad - we will now be recruiting an even higher proportion of our medical staff from developing countries.

[Jdsk]

I certainly agree with that. Another reason Brexit was bad - we will now be recruiting an even higher proportion of our medical staff from developing countries.

The recruitment of healthcare staff from red list countries has already increased. Tenfold for nurses!
https://www.rcn.org.uk/news-and-events/ ... ies-090622

Jonathan

[pete75]

A good nurse is a good nurse but IME that isn't certain with overseas nurses. All foreign nurses we've had contact with have had issues shall we say. Similar with GPs.

Nurses that couldn't read the notes and often looked up the wrong notes despite reading the hospital wrist ID. Or the gp that nobody could understand that only lasted a week. Or the nurse that put the infection control sample in the clinical waste bin then got it out and sent it off for testing. That probably explained how the new born never showed any signs of infection but tests came back with high infection levels.

I'm not often in hospital but I've encountered seriously poor foreign recruited medical staff in those visits. So I'm of the opinion that it's better to recruit from UK. Not least for better quality personnel but also because we're not depriving poorer countries of their own medical staff having paid out to train them. That last is one very good reason that most should agree with.

So you think this obviously sub-standard medic shouldn't have come from Egypt to work here. https://www.imperial.ac.uk/people/nagy.habib

[roubaixtuesday]

I certainly agree with that. Another reason Brexit was bad - we will now be recruiting an even higher proportion of our medical staff from developing countries.

The recruitment of healthcare staff from red list countries has already increased. Tenfold for nurses!
https://www.rcn.org.uk/news-and-events/ ... ies-090622

Jonathan

Yup.

The Iron Law of Brexit.

[al_yrpal]

When I met my wife in 1964 she was training at The Hammersmith, we regularly socialised with heart surgeons from the Ukraine, Russia and Egypt. Later at the Royal Berks it was just the same with health professionals from all over the world. Recently when I had my stents all the nurses male and female were from Kerela in India. Never had any problem with health staff from abroad. Wish I could say the same about some English health staff I have had the misfortune to encounter.

Al

[pete75]

When I met my wife in 1964 she was training at The Hammersmith, we regularly socialised with heart surgeons from the Ukraine, Russia and Egypt. Later at the Royal Berks it was just the same with health professionals from all over the world. Recently when I had my stents all the nurses male and female were from Kerela in India. Never had any problem with health staff from abroad. Wish I could say the same about some English health staff I have had the misfortune to encounter.

Al

Nurses seem to be one of the main exports from Kerala. When I was in hospital last year two of the ward nurses were from there. Both very graceful, gentle ladies and both highly professional.

[pwa]

Hmm well you've consistently posted here that you're anti-immigrant, giving that as you main reason for supporting Brexit. In this thread you've implied that we should keep out those dastardly foreigners by training more true blue Brits to do the jobs. No you haven't explicitly stated it , but certainly strongly hinted at it.

No. You imagined it, Pete, over-extrapolating from what I actually said. I don't have a hidden agenda here. What I tell you is exactly what I mean, no more nor less. Not anti-immigrant, as you put it, but anti unbalanced migration where the flow in one direction isn't roughly balanced with the flow in the other direction. I don't care whether the people coming in are black, white or blue with purple stripes! And when I speak to someone who says something racist, I challenge it. Just as you would. Just to be clear.

So you're anti-immigration but not ant-immigrant. A bit like being anti-rape but not anti-rapist.

Not even anti-immigration if you read what I say more carefully, Pete. Anti unbalanced migration. And I don't see clamping down on asylum seekers as a useful focus for restoring balance. They include some very vulnerable people who we have a moral duty to help, and they come in numbers that could be processed without sacificing a balanced migration policy. If we ever had one.

[ossie]

Did I hear it right? They're suggesting using ferries to store immigrants / asylum seekers on instead of hotels.

If there's any ferries going spare send them up to Scotland, the Scottish government needs all the help it can get supplying the ferries it needs. Surely there's more hotel spaces than ferry spaces anyway.

The Guardian appear to have back tracked and have released another article stating its cruise ships. Unfortunately for them it doesn't quite have the same impact. Oh yeah they've also admitted to their founder having links to slavery...boycott I say

[wheelyhappy99]

The Guardian appear to have back tracked and have released another article stating its cruise ships. Unfortunately for them it doesn't quite have the same impact. Oh yeah they've also admitted to their founder having links to slavery...boycott I say

Not having had time to keep up with the newsfeed today I had a quick look to see what this is about. The Grauniad article refers to 'disused' cruise ships, and adds 'Sources suggested, however, that the cruise ships could be registered as hotels '.

I expect quite a few news organisations have events in their history they regret. Whilst the Guardian are publishing this stuff about connections with the cotton trade and slavery other newspapers are remarkably discrete about their past. This, for example:

"I urge all British young men and women to study closely the progress of the Nazi regime in Germany. They must not be misled by the misrepresentations of its opponents. The most spiteful distracters of the Nazis are to be found in precisely the same sections of the British public and press as are most vehement in their praises of the Soviet regime in Russia.

They have started a clamorous campaign of denunciation against what they call "Nazi atrocities" which, as anyone who visits Germany quickly discovers for himself, consists merely of a few isolated acts of violence such as are inevitable among a nation half as big again as ours, but which have been generalized, multiplied and exaggerated to give the impression that Nazi rule is a bloodthirsty tyranny.

The German nation, moreover, was rapidly falling under the control of its alien elements. In the last days of the pre-Hitler regime there were twenty times as many Jewish Government officials in Germany as had existed before the war. Israelites of international attachments were insinuating themselves into key positions in the German administrative machine. Three German Ministers only had direct relations with the Press, but in each case the official responsible for conveying news and interpreting policy to the public was a Jew."

Published 10 July 1933. Author, one Viscount Rothermere, owner of the Daily Mail, a publication owned by his descendants today.

[Tangled Metal]

All foreign nurses we've had contact with have had issues shall we say. Similar with GPs.

My bold. I'm assuming this is rhetorical hyperbole. I certainly hope so.

Sorry but not hyperbole. All foreign nurses we've had dealings with have had us concerned for one reason or another.

There was also an Irish sounding sister who had the empathy of a psychopath but she could have been northern Irish no not exactly foreign.

I'm not bothered if you don't believe me and it's not racism or other prejudice if that's what you think. It's just that I don't believe the NHS has been selective enough with foreign recruitment. Two main issues I've seen. First is communication. It is not the patients or patient's family to have to work to understand the medical professional. If their English language skills or accent are sufficient to make communication difficult even nonexistent then they are not able to operate at the level needed imho. Second is competency. Whether they don't have the same quality of training as UK trained nurses or they are not trained in NHS systems and UK practices it means they have questionable levels of competency imho.

As an aside a Hungarian doctor I once knew explained how she saw differences between British and Hungarian medical training. She left Hungary after graduation and one year less year of on the job training in a hospital. Than UK fully registered doctors but she was fully registered in Hungary so could work as a fully qualified doctor in the UK. She worked in research fora few years the signed up on the 2 year post grad training course needed to be fully registered in the UK. Well I you sign up for 2 years but possibly registered after one I can't recall. Anyway she started the two year course but didn't need to because she said UK training was considered in her country as having the best training for new doctors. She was a first year, junior of juniors taking instruction from year 2s. However she was fully registered under equivalency rules so year 2s should take instructions from her. But she admitted to not being as well qualified. She was however an incredibly intelligent and capable person so I don't think she was an issue. That's not to say all newly registered Hungary doctors in the UK system are like her.

So my experience and my preference against brain drain from other countries mean I think there's very good arguments to training home grown medical personnel.