Sturmey Archer 5 speed Hub - Slipping gears

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Hoggy1972
Posts: 4
Joined: 5 Feb 2019, 10:45pm

Sturmey Archer 5 speed Hub - Slipping gears

Post by Hoggy1972 »

Hi All,

I'm having a few issues with slipping gears on a Sturmey Archer X-RD5 (w) hub. I've been adjusting the cable tension to try and stop the gears slipping but if i adjust one way Gear 1 works fine, but Gear 2 slips and if i go the other way i get Slipping gear 1 and a good gear 2. Nothing i do to adjust seems to give me non-slipping gears. Gears 3-5 work fine at all times.

Anyone have any solutions to this issue or is it just a case of tweaking the cable tension and gear chain position? Is it likely to be an issue with the internals?

Any help gratefully received.
PT1029
Posts: 1744
Joined: 16 Apr 2012, 9:20pm

Re: Sturmey Archer 5 speed Hub - Slipping gears

Post by PT1029 »

Have you tried checking hat the toggle chain is fully screwed in for correct positionng (assuming you have a toggle chain version, and not the rotary version).
Also check the cable is not draggy/stiff. You can do this by feel/sliding the outer, or after changing up, see if you can.slacken the cable a tad more by lightly pulling on the inner cable at the hub end (in a slackening direction).
Oiling the cable in any event won't do any harm (unless the oil is too thick).

Of the Sturmeys I have seen, anything not 3 speed required quire particular adjustment.
Hoggy1972
Posts: 4
Joined: 5 Feb 2019, 10:45pm

Re: Sturmey Archer 5 speed Hub - Slipping gears

Post by Hoggy1972 »

Thanks, i did change the cable and outer as a first job so hopefully no issues there. I have also read that the 5 speeds are a bit temperamental while the 3 speeds are bomb proof. Not sure why my customer went for a 5 speed but i think it came with the bike. I will continue down the path i was on and try various adjustments. I so very nearly had it done yesterday.
cycle tramp
Posts: 3532
Joined: 5 Aug 2009, 7:22pm

Re: Sturmey Archer 5 speed Hub - Slipping gears

Post by cycle tramp »

Actually.. it might be something with the shifter. My last sturmey archer 3 speed came with a lovely shiny thumb shifter - but I soon noticed that if I went from high to middle, the thumb shifter settle in a very slightly different position as if I went from low to middle..
..I remember discussing it with Brucey at the time and he commented that the same was happening with the 5 speed shifter as well - if I remember rightly the selector ring (which controlled where the clicks would be) as a separate ring, and not part of the shifter body. As a result it would change its position ever so slightly with the movement of the shifter. Whilst it didn't affect the performance of the 3 speed hub, Brucey commented that he believed that the 5 speed hub wouldn't like it.
Motorhead: god was never on your sidehttps://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&client=m ... +your+side
hoogerbooger
Posts: 673
Joined: 14 Jun 2009, 11:27am
Location: In Wales

Re: Sturmey Archer 5 speed Hub - Slipping gears

Post by hoogerbooger »

This link should cover lever issues
viewtopic.php?t=134014
old fangled
Nearholmer
Posts: 3930
Joined: 26 Mar 2022, 7:13am

Re: Sturmey Archer 5 speed Hub - Slipping gears

Post by Nearholmer »

Yes, try the shifter first.

If it is a twist-grip shifter, I’d bet good money that it is slipping, and even an old and tired thumb-lever one might not work correctly.

I found that swapping a twist-grip to a new thumb-lever entirely cured this problem on exactly the same hub, which had hitherto proven impossible to keep adjusted for more than “five minutes”.

It’s not particularly apparent when adjusting at the indicator chain etc, but the incremental pull distances are not the same between the different gears and the thumb shifter sorts that out accurately.

This is the particular one I bought, from SJS Cycles, but you need to check bar diameter etc to be sure.
9040C5B2-307F-4AC0-BE20-C77C947C5386.jpeg
gom
Posts: 66
Joined: 10 Mar 2021, 3:23pm
Location: Glos.

Re: Sturmey Archer 5 speed Hub - Slipping gears

Post by gom »

Last year I had my 1999 Sprinter Hub serviced, which has greatly improved the solidity of gear selection. Prior to this I had to keep ajusting the tension to stop "automatic" gear change while pedalling.
I always understood that 5-speeds needed fine adjustment, so I was living with it, but one day the hub developed a very loud click while pedalling, so I decided something needed to be done.
Is it easy to get a service? I was lucky, I called into an LBS on the off chance, and was told that one of the mechanics was a Sturmey-Archer enthusuast, with quite a large collection. He was able to order some replacement parts, possibly the pauls, but I forget. I was surprised at this, as given S-A's history since 2000 I feared there might be nothing that could be done.

Since servicing the shifting is much more solid (touch wood), and the hub is quieter. S-A hubs do make a noise even when all is OK, but mine now makes less.

Is this the OP's problem? Given previous posts some shifters seem tempramental, and are easier to replace.
Nearholmer
Posts: 3930
Joined: 26 Mar 2022, 7:13am

Re: Sturmey Archer 5 speed Hub - Slipping gears

Post by Nearholmer »

If anyone has an SA hub that needs to be serviced, isn’t able to do it themselves, and can’t find anyone locally, there is a guy near Cambridge who will do them “by post”. His rates are very reasonable, but clearly sending a wheel by post isn’t super-cheap.
petehouk
Posts: 1
Joined: 26 Feb 2024, 12:38am

Re: Sturmey Archer 5 speed Hub - Slipping gears

Post by petehouk »

I have a 5 speed drum brake unit that I have put about 100 miles on. It came with the grip shifter but I replaced that with the lever since it fit my handlebar setup better. I can't get this thing to stay in 3rd gear. When I put it in 3rd and start pedaling, it automatically shifts to 4th and often onto 5th. And it makes some disturbing noises, shifting while under load. I have checked the alignment of the two yellow lines (per the installation instructions) and it looks correct. Any other thoughts on what might do this? Is there any adjustment to that shifter lever? Maybe that can be tightened?
Brucey
Posts: 44521
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Sturmey Archer 5 speed Hub - Slipping gears

Post by Brucey »

petehouk wrote: 26 Feb 2024, 12:43am I have a 5 speed drum brake unit that I have put about 100 miles on. It came with the grip shifter but I replaced that with the lever since it fit my handlebar setup better. I can't get this thing to stay in 3rd gear. When I put it in 3rd and start pedaling, it automatically shifts to 4th and often onto 5th. And it makes some disturbing noises, shifting while under load. I have checked the alignment of the two yellow lines (per the installation instructions) and it looks correct. Any other thoughts on what might do this? Is there any adjustment to that shifter lever? Maybe that can be tightened?
SA have been selling 5s hubs since 1966 and they first patented a design for a 5s hub in the 1920's. You would have thought they would have gut it right by now, but no, every new model has a new weakness. Same with the shifters. If you want help, you need to say which exact model you have, both hub and shifter.

A lot of professional cycle mechanics just tar all SA 5s hubs with the same brush, and would much prefer to have nothing to do with any of them. Whilst this isn't quite right, I can quite understand it. By contrast the same folk usually have nothing but praise for the SA AW 3s hub, which has justly earned the accolade 'most reliable gear change mechanism ever' in many people's eyes.
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The Path Racer
Posts: 40
Joined: 13 Aug 2023, 10:18am

Re: Sturmey Archer 5 speed Hub - Slipping gears

Post by The Path Racer »

I have the same X RD5 hub on a Pashley. Even when I got it working it was only ever a very temporary fix. Sure enough after a few miles one of the gears would start playing up. I replaced the thumbshifter with a Sturmey C50 trigger shift and used some anti slip washers on the rear wheel. I was going to replace inner/outer cable but the C50 seems to have sorted the problem. . . . at least for now, 6 months later.
BTW I find the X RD5 range too compressed. I really need something wider for the hills around these parts. Fortunately I have other bikes that are much more suited. A Sturmey AW 3 speed fitted with a larger cog makes the hills a little easier than the 5 speed.
Brucey
Posts: 44521
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Sturmey Archer 5 speed Hub - Slipping gears

Post by Brucey »

The Path Racer wrote: 27 Feb 2024, 10:16am I have the same X RD5 hub on a Pashley. Even when I got it working it was only ever a very temporary fix. Sure enough after a few miles one of the gears would start playing up. I replaced the thumbshifter with a Sturmey C50 trigger shift and used some anti slip washers on the rear wheel. I was going to replace inner/outer cable but the C50 seems to have sorted the problem. . . . at least for now, 6 months later.
BTW I find the X RD5 range too compressed. I really need something wider for the hills around these parts. Fortunately I have other bikes that are much more suited. A Sturmey AW 3 speed fitted with a larger cog makes the hills a little easier than the 5 speed.
any shifter bearing the designation 'C50' (there are several) should only be used with rotary-shifting hubs bearing the marking 'RX-......' hubs bearing just 'X-RD5' can have three different internals in them, depending on the age and location of manufacture. Hubs marked 'X-RD5(W)' are different again. each hub marking requires a different shifter; in addition the internal ratios are different for each type, too.
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Stradageek
Posts: 1657
Joined: 17 Jan 2011, 1:07pm

Re: Sturmey Archer 5 speed Hub - Slipping gears

Post by Stradageek »

Ok Brucey, I have an aluminium shell 5s2 and a steel shell 5-Star. These are both dual cable hubs, I believe, and I have a range of shifters including a dual lever affair that looks like a 10-speed derailleur downtube shifter.

I'm yet to build either into a wheel but I'm naively assuming that using a dual lever shifter will mean that I just have an AW3 with two sun gears selected using the other lever - what could go wrong?

I suspect the answer could be complicated :?
The Path Racer
Posts: 40
Joined: 13 Aug 2023, 10:18am

Re: Sturmey Archer 5 speed Hub - Slipping gears

Post by The Path Racer »

Brucey wrote: 27 Feb 2024, 2:33pm
The Path Racer wrote: 27 Feb 2024, 10:16am I have the same X RD5 hub on a Pashley. Even when I got it working it was only ever a very temporary fix. Sure enough after a few miles one of the gears would start playing up. I replaced the thumbshifter with a Sturmey C50 trigger shift and used some anti slip washers on the rear wheel. I was going to replace inner/outer cable but the C50 seems to have sorted the problem. . . . at least for now, 6 months later.
BTW I find the X RD5 range too compressed. I really need something wider for the hills around these parts. Fortunately I have other bikes that are much more suited. A Sturmey AW 3 speed fitted with a larger cog makes the hills a little easier than the 5 speed.
any shifter bearing the designation 'C50' (there are several) should only be used with rotary-shifting hubs bearing the marking 'RX-......' hubs bearing just 'X-RD5' can have three different internals in them, depending on the age and location of manufacture. Hubs marked 'X-RD5(W)' are different again. each hub marking requires a different shifter; in addition the internal ratios are different for each type, too.
Oops. It's an X-RD5, no W marking. I wasn't aware that the C50 could only be used with a RX. I do know that the X-RD5 was hugely problematic with the previous thumb shifter. However many attempts I had at adjustment (plenty!) I just could not get it to work in any reliable way.
Brucey
Posts: 44521
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Sturmey Archer 5 speed Hub - Slipping gears

Post by Brucey »

the first production 5-star hubs all broke because some twit let them be put together and then sold with dodgy sun pinions, that simply had't been made properly. in truth, the hub design (which included such things as cantilevered planet pinions) wasn't that great anyway, but by the time the first batch left Nottingham, the die was already cast. The chances are that your hub was made later and has sun pinions that are OK but there is no way to check them easily. Since the consequences of failure are pretty dire (think of the 'chestburster' scene in the first Alien movie, yes failure can take out the hubshell too) it may be prudent to change the Sun pinions anyway.

Both the S52 and the 5-star use a pull chain on the left side. This arrangement in the S5/2 relies on two springs fighting one another in gears 1 and 5 which is somewhat sub-optimal. Folk do say this can work OK, but the S5/1 never had a pull-chain on the left, it had a pushrod instead. The original S5/1 pushrod control has been nla for years, but having successfully converted numerous similarly-sprung 4s hubs (mainly FG and FW models).to 5s, and ridden a very long way (over decades) on them to boot, I can safely tell you there is a much better way. Now I didn't come up with this idea, but I wish I had.

The better way involves using a simple pushrod on the left which is not difficult to make. The pushrod itself can be made from any convenient 3/16" steel rod (I have used a 6" nail before now) which can be bent into an 'L' shape, where the short side is about 20mm and the length of the long side is determined by the length of the axle. A standard SA chain and adjuster is fitted to the short side of the L. I used a short length of old spoke as a rivet, having drilled everything to 2mm diameter and filed a suitable feature onto the pushrod. The toggle key can be replaced with a reshaped and shortened pawl pivot pin, which is far stronger. In use, the 'pull' of the gear lever is turned into a 'push' into the hub by the simple expedient of routing the control via the back of the dropout. In many cases there is already a triangular cut-out in the dropout which can be used. All that is required is to ensure that the SA chain runs on a nice radius, which can usually be achieved using a swiss file.
If the spring in the hub is particularly feeble (which you might like because it reduces parasitic.drag in gears 2,3 (usually) and 4) then it may not be strong enough to pull the cable properly, in which case you can fit an additional external 'helper' tension spring whose only job is to pull the cable towards the hub. If you fit a 'helper' spring it can be hooked between the frame and the adjuster and in addition, it can remain connected even when the wheel is out.
Particularly if one is fitted to each side, this can help the gear cables not to come unshipped when the wheel is out, since they are always under tension from the helper springs. I have made perfectly satisfactory helper springs using old spokes. They can be coiled around a suitable mandrel (about 6mm is best) and a typical long spoke is long enough for about 12 turns and can still have ~40mm at each end for hooks to be made. It isn't a bad idea to run the gear cable down the middle of the helper spring; this makes everything neat and tidy as well as ensuring that the pull of the helper spring is correctly aligned.
The parasitic drag in gears 2/4 in all S5 type hubs as well as converted FW and FG hubs can be greatly reduced by modifying the larger sun pinion so that a carrier can be used beneath it. It is possible to make a suitable carrier from an AW clutch carrier. In use, the spring bears against the carrier instead of the sun and the sun is completely unloaded and free to rotate. In fact, the only load the carrier should ever see is the spring load, so even a very thin-walled carrier such as the modified AW part will work fine.
It is necessary to revise the springing inside either hub when fitting a left side pushrod; In the case of some S5 hubs it is simply a case of removing the spring hidden inside the gear 2/4 sun locking cup. However, if you have an axle where the left side toggle key works on the larger sun pinon directly then you will need to fit a weak spring inside the cup, to ensure that the smaller sun comes unlocked when making the 4-5 shift or the 2-1 shift. In the case of the 5 star, I think it is possible to fit something in the slot for a short compression spring to bear against and make the pushrod work, but there is perhaps less to be gained here; sure, the hub will be more reliable and you won't ever have to find a difficult toggle chain and you won't be at the mercy of your toggle key integrity in the same way, but you are not solving a fundamental problem like you are with the S5/2.
Last edited by Brucey on 29 Feb 2024, 11:44am, edited 2 times in total.
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