Wheelbuilding - is it me or what?

General cycling advice ( NOT technical ! )
User avatar
danfoto
Posts: 983
Joined: 2 Jun 2009, 2:59pm
Location: East Sussex

Wheelbuilding - is it me or what?

Post by danfoto »

Suffice it to say that The Lady Wife's number one ebike ended up with five slightly bent spokes in the rear wheel, and she persuaded me to "take it to the menders" on account of my arthritis and whatnot. So I did, after having procured from the makers enough original-equipment spokes.

The shop I took it to lists "Wheel Building" on their website, so as they seemed happy enough to take the job on, I left the bike with them and walked home. We have just had a phone call, the gist of which is that the spokes are too long by 4mm so they'll have to order in some of the right length, otherwise "the ends of the spokes will poke through the nipples and could cause a puncture".

"I don't understand" says I. "Why can't you just snip the ends off?" Silence at other end of phone. "Ermmm ... well I don't know if that's possible. I don't know if we could get cutters in there."

Silence at my end. Count to ten. Be kind. Etc. "I can put an abrasive wheel on my Dremel and be with you in 20 minutes if that's any help."

Silence at other end. "Ermmm ... we've got a Dremel".

"There you go then. Problem solved."

"Ermmm ... I'll see how we get on."

And I am currently awaiting the phone call which will either tell me they've done it, or they can't do it after all.

Is it me, or what? Is this sort of thing par for the course for a shop that advertisies wheel building?
User avatar
531colin
Posts: 16083
Joined: 4 Dec 2009, 6:56pm
Location: North Yorkshire

Re: Wheelbuilding - is it me or what?

Post by 531colin »

"when a customer shows up with a bike and a part they want fitted, never assume that the part will fit or work."

......thats a fairly early lesson for anybody working in a bike shop.

An experienced wheelbuilder would offer up the "new" spokes against the existing wheel before starting work; then if the customer's spokes don't fit (and for some strange reason you don't have spokes which would fit) then the customer can carry on using the bike while you get spokes in. Now there is a chance that they will have to store a heavy dis-assembled bike.

I wouldn't have been replacing spokes anyway viewtopic.php?p=1758842#p1758842 : and I wouldn't have ordered spokes from somebody who wasn't going to do the wheelbuilding, because the more "experts" you involve the more chances there are for things to go wrong and to shift the blame to the previous person.

(sorry!)
fastpedaller
Posts: 3435
Joined: 10 Jul 2014, 1:12pm
Location: Norfolk

Re: Wheelbuilding - is it me or what?

Post by fastpedaller »

It will only be possible to shorten the spokes (after they have been put in place and tensioned) if there is enough room to get the dremel (or whatever) in to grind the end of the spoke. In the days of single wall rims with the end of the nipples and spoke being proud of the surface it would be easy to file a bit off. 4mm seems a bit excessive, as the nipple may be at the lower end of the thread anyway. Of course, before the spokes are put in the wheel, if the shop have a thread rolling machine they can roll an extra 4mm of thread and then shorten the spokes by 4mm.
I have a thread rolling machine :D
User avatar
cycleruk
Posts: 6065
Joined: 17 Jan 2009, 9:30pm
Location: Lancashire

Re: Wheelbuilding - is it me or what?

Post by cycleruk »

fastpedaller wrote: 31 Mar 2023, 3:54pm It will only be possible to shorten the spokes (after they have been put in place and tensioned) :D
Why can't you do the shortening before ?
You'll never know if you don't try it.
PH
Posts: 13106
Joined: 21 Jan 2007, 12:31am
Location: Derby
Contact:

Re: Wheelbuilding - is it me or what?

Post by PH »

cycleruk wrote: 31 Mar 2023, 4:06pm
fastpedaller wrote: 31 Mar 2023, 3:54pm It will only be possible to shorten the spokes (after they have been put in place and tensioned) :D
Why can't you do the shortening before ?
Before or after, I'd be surprised if you could get 4mm poking out the top of the nipple, there's only usually 8-10 mm thread to start with.
rareposter
Posts: 1987
Joined: 27 Aug 2014, 2:40pm

Re: Wheelbuilding - is it me or what?

Post by rareposter »

cycleruk wrote: 31 Mar 2023, 4:06pm Why can't you do the shortening before ?
You've selectively quoted which has completely changed the meaning of the sentence.
fastpedaller wrote: 31 Mar 2023, 3:54pm It will only be possible to shorten the spokes (after they have been put in place and tensioned) if there is enough room to get the dremel (or whatever) in to grind the end of the spoke.
danfoto wrote: 31 Mar 2023, 2:25pm Is it me, or what? Is this sort of thing par for the course for a shop that advertisies wheel building?
Umm...it's you.
You've turned up to a shop with the wrong size spokes and basically forced them to trim the spokes and roll additional thread (if they can actually do that) turning an already complicated job on an overbuilt e-bike wheel into something that'll take double the time.
User avatar
danfoto
Posts: 983
Joined: 2 Jun 2009, 2:59pm
Location: East Sussex

Re: Wheelbuilding - is it me or what?

Post by danfoto »

rareposter wrote: 31 Mar 2023, 4:28pm
Umm...it's you.
You've turned up to a shop with the wrong size spokes and basically forced them to trim the spokes and roll additional thread (if they can actually do that) turning an already complicated job on an overbuilt e-bike wheel into something that'll take double the time.
Not so. Bike manufacturer says spokes are correct length, they checked correct length to my way of thinking, but shop says they're too long by 4mm. As a time-served toolmaker, I fail to see what the issue could be if they are 4mm too long. Worst case would surely be spoke needs cutting to length and thread needs rolling further up the spoke to suit.
User avatar
danfoto
Posts: 983
Joined: 2 Jun 2009, 2:59pm
Location: East Sussex

Re: Wheelbuilding - is it me or what?

Post by danfoto »

fastpedaller wrote: 31 Mar 2023, 3:54pm ... Of course, before the spokes are put in the wheel, if the shop have a thread rolling machine they can roll an extra 4mm of thread and then shorten the spokes by 4mm ...
And if they're advertising wheel building, they definitely should have a thread rolling machine!
User avatar
danfoto
Posts: 983
Joined: 2 Jun 2009, 2:59pm
Location: East Sussex

Re: Wheelbuilding - is it me or what?

Post by danfoto »

531colin wrote: 31 Mar 2023, 3:52pm ... I wouldn't have been replacing spokes anyway viewtopic.php?p=1758842#p1758842 : and I wouldn't have ordered spokes from somebody who wasn't going to do the wheelbuilding ...
To clarify, The Lady Wife decided that at my age, with my arthritis, and having regard to the fact that I'd have to do the job outdoors, she wanted it taken to the local bike shop. The alternative to the local bike shop would have involved me removing the rear wheel, finding the materials to pack it properly, then paying a courier to take it back to the supplier 200 miles away, paying him to sort it, and then paying for return shipping. (Alas, trying to make it a guarantee claim was a non-starter.)

The spokes were ordered from Gazelle, and upon arrival were checked against the wheel. AFAIC they were identical.
JohnMorgan
Posts: 111
Joined: 9 Jun 2022, 7:19pm

Re: Wheelbuilding - is it me or what?

Post by JohnMorgan »

Could there a mistake made on the order, and instead of drive side spokes, you ended up with non drive side spokes? In any event, I’d be ‘playing a tune’ on the spokes when you get it back, and see what the tension’s like - good luck!
User avatar
531colin
Posts: 16083
Joined: 4 Dec 2009, 6:56pm
Location: North Yorkshire

Re: Wheelbuilding - is it me or what?

Post by 531colin »

danfoto wrote: 31 Mar 2023, 5:32pm
531colin wrote: 31 Mar 2023, 3:52pm ... I wouldn't have been replacing spokes anyway viewtopic.php?p=1758842#p1758842 : and I wouldn't have ordered spokes from somebody who wasn't going to do the wheelbuilding ...
To clarify, The Lady Wife decided that at my age, with my arthritis, and having regard to the fact that I'd have to do the job outdoors, she wanted it taken to the local bike shop. The alternative to the local bike shop would have involved me removing the rear wheel, finding the materials to pack it properly, then paying a courier to take it back to the supplier 200 miles away, paying him to sort it, and then paying for return shipping. (Alas, trying to make it a guarantee claim was a non-starter.)

The spokes were ordered from Gazelle, and upon arrival were checked against the wheel. AFAIC they were identical.
As I said at the outset, its clearly the wheelbuilders job to check that he has in his hand the correct spokes for the job. It isn't the customers job.
fastpedaller
Posts: 3435
Joined: 10 Jul 2014, 1:12pm
Location: Norfolk

Re: Wheelbuilding - is it me or what?

Post by fastpedaller »

Has the wheel got a huge flat on the rim and the 'correct spokes' appear to be 4mm too long? :lol:
Carlton green
Posts: 3645
Joined: 22 Jun 2019, 12:27pm

Re: Wheelbuilding - is it me or what?

Post by Carlton green »

4mm seems like a big error to me and I wonder how much spare thread there is on the spoke.

Just because someone says that they have supplied the right part doesn’t mean that they have. Just because someone says that they can build and repair wheel’s doesn’t mean that they can … :(

I know that wives can be a bit difficult about us men folk doing dirty jobs inside their homes. Sometimes it’s a case of putting dust sheets and the like out and getting on with the job, preferably when they’re out. :wink:
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
rogerzilla
Posts: 2887
Joined: 9 Jun 2008, 8:06pm

Re: Wheelbuilding - is it me or what?

Post by rogerzilla »

Spoke length calculators don't always give the right answer. The usual culprit is the rim ERD being wrong, as this is the most critical measurement. Ryde/Rigida quote ERD in a strange way which can give a 4mm error.

You can file a mm or two from the end of a slightly-long spoke, but it will run out of thread beyond that.
iandusud
Posts: 1577
Joined: 26 Mar 2018, 1:35pm

Re: Wheelbuilding - is it me or what?

Post by iandusud »

When I was running a bike shop and building wheels every day it would be very unusual if I didn't have the right length of spoke in stock for any job. If I didn't and it was just five spokes, as in this case, I would have cut some to length and rolled the thread. If your spokes are 4mm too long then grinding down the protrusion is not the answer as the thread won't be long enough and access to grinding the spoke in situ might be tricky depending on the rim. Personally I think you error was to order the spokes from Gazelle. If a shop advertises as doing wheel building then I would get them to supply the spokes. That way they are responsible for supplying and fitting the correct length. It would almost certainly be cheaper.
Post Reply