Who would drive an EV ?

[pete75]

Having heard of some of the stuff that goes on to get the materials needed for EV’s they’re far from green. It seems to me that most EV’s are far bigger than they need to be and that few small ones are available, but you can still buy a small and economical petrol powered car - I’m not convinced that any car that’s actually available is less poisonous than a small petrol car.

Not true. Even Mercedes a small electric car.

[francovendee]

Methinks any scare mongering is a different issue to the green consideration or the economic one. I suspect that many people won't go electric on cost alone. I won't. They cost way too much new for many of us. Indeed I object strongly to a new car of any sort anyway as I feel that as in virtually everything thing in life we should be fixing what we have not buying another. A ICE has fairly predictable cost regarding wear and tear. Possibly an electric one does but they are much higher, a definite not a maybe and not for the home mechanic. And where can I get an electric car that is 10 years old, may go on as long again and can be bought for bugger all?
Nope, not until I have no other choice.

I think you're looking for the unobtainable. I've always bought cars that are at least 6 years old and keep them for around 10 years. It's great to be green and I'd happily if, I could, buy a used BEV that would give me this.

[Nigel]

Scary stuff here...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOA7qKMcjcE

Just glad I've given up driving, given that these things will soon be compulsory.

Cars catch fire in the UK too. Two weeks ago, making some coffee for lunch, I noticed a plume of smoke rising beyond my back fence. I went up the garden to find a neighbour's shiny VW billowing thick smoke from the bonnet area. Nobody in the car, the owner was on his doorstep. Someone else with a mobile was talking to the 999 operator. Within three minutes, the fire was somewhat worse, and the siren of the fire brigade was heard coming up the road. An hour later the fire brigade left. Car a write-off.

A VW Passat, which isn't electric, not even hybrid.



Car weights - the crash testing for both occupants and other road users. A Citroen AX (and most others of similar vintage) wouldn't be legal to sell today on crash testing.


- Nigel

[geocycle]

Methinks any scare mongering is a different issue to the green consideration or the economic one. I suspect that many people won't go electric on cost alone. I won't. They cost way too much new for many of us. Indeed I object strongly to a new car of any sort anyway as I feel that as in virtually everything thing in life we should be fixing what we have not buying another. A ICE has fairly predictable cost regarding wear and tear. Possibly an electric one does but they are much higher, a definite not a maybe and not for the home mechanic. And where can I get an electric car that is 10 years old, may go on as long again and can be bought for bugger all?
Nope, not until I have no other choice.

I think you are absolutely correct…. at this moment in time. Most of us have done the sums and realised that based on our usage the green gains are hard to justify. But it is changing, costs relating to EVs will come down quickly, costs and convenience of ICEs will go in the opposite direction. What we can’t easily guess is the time scale and that depends on government decisions as well as markets.

[deeferdonk]

i think the change to EV's is a lot more straightforward for those in the population who buy or lease new cars as a matter of course.

i'm very debt/contract averse so have only ever bought a car that i can afford to pay outright in cash i have saved- so always an older less desirable car. Currently drive an ex -motability vehicle that i took the wheelchair ramp out.

i can't fathom the situation of having to pay several hundreds of pounds a month to pay a lease or service a debt for a car i'll never fully own. its bad enough having to have a mortgage on a house! What a new/nearly new ICE version of something similar would cost is staggering to me let alone an EV version. I could maybe stretch to an early 2nd hand Nissan leaf but would be limitations/uncertainties on milage and residual life

Will have to see what the situation is when my current car requires replacing or legislation makes it too impractical to run. Nothing against EV cars as a technology but I'm far too tight to enter the market now, and is arguably comparably climate concious to keep an old car going on a small milage in the mean time.

[Carlton green]

i think the change to EV's is a lot more straightforward for those in the population who buy or lease new cars as a matter of course.

^^ This. When you’re not paying for the car yourself, have big tax breaks for an EV or have limited liability the use of EV’s becomes much more a viable choice. Some folk have plenty full funds but for those that self fund from limited funds an EV is, I think, hard to justify - not impossible but you really have to think about things so much more closely and my own conclusion is to leave them alone for some years.

[Bmblbzzz]

Eventually the number of petrol-burning vehicles on the roads will become so few that the fuel is only available at special places for enthusiasts. Diesel might hang around longer as HGVs and buses use it, but AIUI the flow rate from those pumps is too high for cars and vans, so not much good. But those situations won't occur for several decades after the cease-registration of new ICEs. And sometime before that happens, the keep-it-running market will be already largely composed of cast-off Leafs and Teslas. Okay, Teslas will still be expensive, but there will come a point when s/h EVs are plentiful and may make more sense financially than s/h ICEVs.

[UpWrong]

It's certainly an alarming video. Have to say I'm likely to wait before leaping in the hope that safer battery chemistries apppear such as sodium-ion (discussed elsewhere). Even with better quality control in Europe, I do wonder if insurance will go through the roof since writing-off a BEV rather than repairing might be a safety imperative.

[tim-b]

The EU is already reconsidering its 2030/35 targets because the German automotive industry wants e-fuels, which are substitutes for petrol, diesel, heating oil, etc, made using renewable electricity https://www.efuel-alliance.eu/faq
Current internal combustion engines will run on e-fuels and in some ways it's environmentally-friendly to keep existing vehicles running, rather than the emissions associated with manufacturing new vehicles. These fuels mean that the EU can continue building new petrol and diesel vehicles, which isn't good, and they'll doubtless end up on the second-hand market here.

The UK has confirmed that it'll be sticking with its targets, which doesn't give the next government long to sort our charging infra-structure out

[Carlton green]

The EU is already reconsidering its 2030/35 targets because the German automotive industry wants e-fuels, which are substitutes for petrol, diesel, heating oil, etc, made using renewable electricity https://www.efuel-alliance.eu/faq
Current internal combustion engines will run on e-fuels and in some ways it's environmentally-friendly to keep existing vehicles running, rather than the emissions associated with manufacturing new vehicles. These fuels mean that the EU can continue building new petrol and diesel vehicles, which isn't good, and they'll doubtless end up on the second-hand market here.

The UK has confirmed that it'll be sticking with its targets, which doesn't give the next government long to sort our charging infra-structure out

The current UK Government can say what it likes secure in the knowledge that its term ends soon, who will be in power in 2030 and 2035 is anybody’s guess. My best estimate is that, much nearer the time, the changes will be reviewed and likely be rolled backwards / watered down. The EU might stick as is, and if that’s the case then they’ll have no product to sell; that might make any government changes here of academic importance - which would be handy for whoever is in power at the time - or it might mean imports from elsewhere.

2030 is seven years away and a lot can happen in that time. In the last seven years we’ve had Brexit, Covid and the war in Ukraine; the governments of the day didn’t expect any of them and they were mostly off of the electorate’s radar too.

[Bmblbzzz]

I think that what happens legislatively will depend on the technological, or rather marketing, progress of electric vehicles. We know the technology works but if the public can't be persuaded to adopt it in the next seven or so years, perhaps the legislation will be rolled back. It will depend, of course, which bit of the motor industry has the ear of the government of the day.

[mattsccm]

"I think you're looking for the unobtainable."
Which is why an EV isn't for me . As said above, the whole idea of borrowing to use something is abhorent. Not the current fashion of course but where possible I believe you shouln't buy something you can't pay for up front. A house is about the only reasonable exception that I consider.
To be honest I am surprised that the rabid socialists haven't jumped on this band wagon. The new car thing, especially with the built in short life of EVs is terribly elitist and capistalist.

[Biospace]

One my my first cars was a Citroen AX diesel. It was light, pretty spacious inside and compact outside, and it didn’t take much effort to get 80mpg out of it. You’d have thought that 30 years of “progress” would have improved on this… sadly there’s nothing now that seems available. And I have no idea why EVs are so hugely overbuilt when being light and fuel efficient would seem to be more necessary than for an ICE vehicle.

I imagine it's profit related. In not very long it's likely the only smaller, less expensive cars will be Chinese. I will miss the practicality, low running costs and flair of small French and Italian cars.

Car weights - the crash testing for both occupants and other road users. A Citroen AX (and most others of similar vintage) wouldn't be legal to sell today on crash testing.
- Nigel

People have long associated weight with safety - it's a largely false idea. It's design which largely dicates how safe a car is, both in avoiding a crash in the first place and once it is involved in an impact.

Eventually the number of petrol-burning vehicles on the roads will become so few that the fuel is only available at special places for enthusiasts. Diesel might hang around longer as HGVs and buses use it, but AIUI the flow rate from those pumps is too high for cars and vans, so not much good. But those situations won't occur for several decades after the cease-registration of new ICEs. And sometime before that happens, the keep-it-running market will be already largely composed of cast-off Leafs and Teslas. Okay, Teslas will still be expensive, but there will come a point when s/h EVs are plentiful and may make more sense financially than s/h ICEVs.

Eventually could well be a very long time in the future, winding down the fossil fuel industry will take a while. The internal combustion engine will very likely outlast the availability of FF and still be in use on the roads towards the end of this century. I'm not sure they will regulate availability using pump flow rates.

[al_yrpal]

Electric cars are being written off after minor damage to batteries, casting renewed doubt on their environmental credentials.

Roughly half of low-mileage EVs being salvaged have suffered minor battery damage – which can be caused by something as innocuous as mounting a kerb – according to Copart, an auction platform.

A senior source in the insurance industry said car manufacturers were not sharing diagnostic data because they were wary of third parties botching repairs. As a result, insurance companies are reluctant to attempt repairs and assume responsibility should anything go wrong.

“A lot of people are quite scared of what to do with them,” he said. “If a car is not powered down correctly you could get electrocutedElectric cars are typically more expensive to insure than petrol cars because repairs are often more complex and time-consuming.

Supply chain issues with components and parts also mean drivers could be forced to wait up to a year for a replacement vehicle.

The most cost-effective solution for insurers, therefore, is to scrap the entire car.

Mr Payne said: “EVs are environmentally friendly, but if you write one off questions start to be raised on the environmental impact.”

He said salvage plants have “no way of disposing” of damaged batteries. “Loads of them have lines of batteries that just kind of sit there,” he added.

Adrian Watson, head of engineering at Thatcham Research, an insurers' research centre, said Britain’s car industry would need to address the issue of battery repair before 2035, when the sale of petrol cars will be banned outright.

“The reality is, with price flux there are vehicles where a replacement battery is more than the recommended retail price of the vehicle,” he said.”

Source... Torygraph

Al

[francovendee]

Electric cars are being written off after minor damage to batteries, casting renewed doubt on their environmental credentials.

Roughly half of low-mileage EVs being salvaged have suffered minor battery damage – which can be caused by something as innocuous as mounting a kerb – according to Copart, an auction platform.

A senior source in the insurance industry said car manufacturers were not sharing diagnostic data because they were wary of third parties botching repairs. As a result, insurance companies are reluctant to attempt repairs and assume responsibility should anything go wrong.

“A lot of people are quite scared of what to do with them,” he said. “If a car is not powered down correctly you could get electrocutedElectric cars are typically more expensive to insure than petrol cars because repairs are often more complex and time-consuming.

Supply chain issues with components and parts also mean drivers could be forced to wait up to a year for a replacement vehicle.

The most cost-effective solution for insurers, therefore, is to scrap the entire car.

Mr Payne said: “EVs are environmentally friendly, but if you write one off questions start to be raised on the environmental impact.”

He said salvage plants have “no way of disposing” of damaged batteries. “Loads of them have lines of batteries that just kind of sit there,” he added.

Adrian Watson, head of engineering at Thatcham Research, an insurers' research centre, said Britain’s car industry would need to address the issue of battery repair before 2035, when the sale of petrol cars will be banned outright.

“The reality is, with price flux there are vehicles where a replacement battery is more than the recommended retail price of the vehicle,” he said.”

Source... Torygraph

Al

I can't fault the sources for this article and it does rather cast doubt over the whole 'greeness' of BEV's,
I suspect things will improve but if I were considering purchasing another 6 year old car it wouldn't be a BEV.
Maybe I would in the future but I doubt I'll live long enough.