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Re: Who would drive an EV ?
Posted: 3 Aug 2023, 10:18pm
by cycle tramp
This is before we even consider energy theft. Its been established that you can draw electricity from a charged electric vehicle effectively stealing electricity. This will change when thieves start to interrupt cables between electricity and the cars which are being charged.
We also have to think about EV battery life when stationery for hours in traffic queues. Whilst there's no drain from the electric motor, the battery is still still being drained by light, or air conditioning in hot weather and the heater in cold weather. We could be in a situation whereby people start a journey with just enough power to get to there destination, find themselves stuck on a traffic jam for 4 or 5 hours and then fail to have enough energy to reach their destination.
Re: Who would drive an EV ?
Posted: 4 Aug 2023, 7:51am
by Carlton green
cycle tramp wrote: ↑3 Aug 2023, 10:11pm
Carlton green wrote: ↑2 Aug 2023, 8:39am
Jdsk wrote: ↑2 Aug 2023, 8:29am
Every thread about EVs seems to suffer relentless diversion and whataboutery. It's a pity.
Jonathan
Who would drive an EV? Well shortly anyone who drives at all because even before 2030 we won’t be able to buy anything else.
I suspect that the 2030 deadline will be rolled back, simply due to the lack of infrastructure.
Whilst recharging any electric car in a private driveway is a relatively simple matter, for anyone who parks on the street its going to be an interesting experience. The Government has simply stated that street lamps will be used as re-charging points- which if you think about it just doesn't stack up. Where I live we've got one street light for every fifteen to twenty five houses - and there's alot of rural areas which don't even have street lights of off street parking.
Even if you were to use lamp posts as charging points, the pavement will become a tripping hazard for anyone attempting to walk on them, due to the number of power cables.
You could put alot more charging points at the edge of the road, but any upright posts between the pavement and road becomes a hazard for any road user - plus it would require a massive amount of Government investment.
And this is before we consider power cuts. When a row of street lamp fails, its usually caused by an issue to the national grid which feeds the street lamps. Inspection and repair time is measured in months. If this doesn't change then people may be without a charging point for their car for months.
We also have to consider that in some modern developments where demand for parking outstrips the supply, there may even be too many cars for too few charging points.
All absolutely true but when did common sense ever have a decisive place in Government policies?
The current government senses impending electoral defeat ahead and all our governments’ work in no more than five year cycles. So what happens with that? Difficult decisions are batted off into the long grass and booby traps are left for the opposition to inherit. IMHO a lot of green policies are flawed; the ability to implement isn’t there yet, timescales are unrealistic, budgets are unrealistic and sound bite populist politics dictates our direction of travel. Daft, you couldn’t make it up, and it’s a financial disaster for the man in the street.
Re: Who would drive an EV ?
Posted: 4 Aug 2023, 10:53am
by al_yrpal
+1 Carlton. You summed it up nicely. Policy was thought up by an idiot skilled in Homer being prodded by a nutty lady with an interior design 'degree'.
Al
Re: Who would drive an EV ?
Posted: 4 Aug 2023, 10:56am
by Bmblbzzz
I expect that theft of electricity from vehicles will be a smaller issue than theft of fuel from vehicle tanks ever was, partly for the same reason – manufacturers incorporating security features – and partly because theft of electricity, which would have to be into a battery or perhaps another vehicle, takes much longer. People might tap into charging cables between house and street, sometimes with fatal consequences, not always to themselves, but again it's going to be rare unless you've got a connector cable accessible. Theft from streetlamps is, I suppose, technically possible already.
The trip hazard is all too real and will probably receive the least attention, followed by the accessibility (and further motor-dominance) issues caused by charging infrastructure on pavements.
Re: Who would drive an EV ?
Posted: 4 Aug 2023, 1:03pm
by mig
i'd think that cheaper overnight rates for electricity would be a thing of the past if/when there are a significant amount of vehicles being charged ready for the morning.
many houses have 2 or more vehicles. able to charge them all ready for the morning?
Re: Who would drive an EV ?
Posted: 5 Aug 2023, 5:03pm
by softlips
mig wrote: ↑4 Aug 2023, 1:03pm
i'd think that cheaper overnight rates for electricity would be a thing of the past if/when there are a significant amount of vehicles being charged ready for the morning.
many houses have 2 or more vehicles. able to charge them all ready for the morning?
How often would they all want to charge all at once? Probably never. I know a few households with 3 EVs and many with 2. I did ask a friend who has and EV as does his wife and son how they managed to charge as I know they only have one charge point. He said it had never been an issue each of them only charges once a week or less.
Re: Who would drive an EV ?
Posted: 5 Aug 2023, 5:11pm
by softlips
cycle tramp wrote: ↑3 Aug 2023, 10:18pm
We also have to think about EV battery life when stationery for hours in traffic queues. Whilst there's no drain from the electric motor, the battery is still still being drained by light, or air conditioning in hot weather and the heater in cold weather. We could be in a situation whereby people start a journey with just enough power to get to there destination, find themselves stuck on a traffic jam for 4 or 5 hours and then fail to have enough energy to reach their destination.
How does this differ from sitting with the engine running to power aircon etc? Of course it's easier just to put some petrol or diesel in if you run out but the AA etc have systems now to recharge EVs so they can get to a charging station. I've been driving 40 years covering the whole of the UK and have never been stuck for hours on end, I know it happens but it's a rare event.
Re: Who would drive an EV ?
Posted: 5 Aug 2023, 10:36pm
by Pete Owens
mig wrote: ↑4 Aug 2023, 1:03pm
i'd think that cheaper overnight rates for electricity would be a thing of the past if/when there are a significant amount of vehicles being charged ready for the morning.
Actually it is likely that tariffs will vary by the minute in real time to help match demand to supply of intermittent renewable power sources. A smart charge point will deliver power to the EV when there is surplus supply and the rate is cheap and run in reverse to supply power the house at times when demand spikes. When we fully decarbonise power generation we are going to need more storage and EV batteries could contribute towards that.
Re: Who would drive an EV ?
Posted: 6 Aug 2023, 8:52am
by cycle tramp
Pete Owens wrote: ↑5 Aug 2023, 10:36pm
mig wrote: ↑4 Aug 2023, 1:03pm
i'd think that cheaper overnight rates for electricity would be a thing of the past if/when there are a significant amount of vehicles being charged ready for the morning.
Actually it is likely that tariffs will vary by the minute in real time to help match demand to supply of intermittent renewable power sources. A smart charge point will deliver power to the EV when there is surplus supply and the rate is cheap and run in reverse to supply power the house at times when demand spikes. When we fully decarbonise power generation we are going to need more storage and EV batteries could contribute towards that.
Except that there's doubt being expressed by the mining companies as to whether there's enough accessible lithium to supply the predicted demand for the number of electric vehicles expected to be driven.
Question marks as to whether a lithium battery can be completely recycled, the toxic waste which is produced when a battery is recycled and in some methods of recycling the amazing amount of clean fresh water which is required to recycle the lithium
The electric vehicle currently appears as one big social experiment.
.... the only credible solution is to adopt a transport strategy by which as many people in the UK make as many journeys by bicycle as they possibly can
Re: Who would drive an EV ?
Posted: 6 Aug 2023, 9:48am
by ANTONISH
Pete Owens wrote: ↑5 Aug 2023, 10:36pm
mig wrote: ↑4 Aug 2023, 1:03pm
i'd think that cheaper overnight rates for electricity would be a thing of the past if/when there are a significant amount of vehicles being charged ready for the morning.
Actually it is likely that tariffs will vary by the minute in real time to help match demand to supply of intermittent renewable power sources. A smart charge point will deliver power to the EV when there is surplus supply and the rate is cheap and run in reverse to supply power the house at times when demand spikes. When we fully decarbonise power generation we are going to need more storage and EV batteries could contribute towards that.
Charging an EV with a domestic charger takes several hours.
It will be interesting to see how motorists respond to finding their vehicle has been running in reverse charge for a substantial time and is only partly charged when setting off for work.
As for storage- this needs to be solved long before we fully decarbonise.
Re: Who would drive an EV ?
Posted: 6 Aug 2023, 12:47pm
by Bmblbzzz
We've had cars for over a hundred years and haven't solved their storage yet, let alone storage of electricity.
Re: Who would drive an EV ?
Posted: 6 Aug 2023, 7:46pm
by simonhill
Re on street charging. I recently saw one solution. You get an implement that looks a bit like a stirrup pump (long tube with handle on the top and a power cable attached). On the pavement near to the kerb is a small disc. You put your power connector on the disc and it opens. Then you push it down till it mates with the power supply. Then plug it into the car and it starts charging.
It was a pretty neat solution, but what worried me is what happens in heavy rain. Most safety advice is that electricity and water don't mix. Here, I can see someone handling electrical connectors in the wet,
Re: Who would drive an EV ?
Posted: 6 Aug 2023, 9:20pm
by Nearholmer
It’s probably got a “circuit complete” detection system, so that it won’t energise until it’s all plugged together.
Re: Who would drive an EV ?
Posted: 7 Aug 2023, 9:30am
by Bmblbzzz
What worries me about that is that it's yet another piece of motoring infrastructure encroaching on pedestrian areas.
Re: Who would drive an EV ?
Posted: 7 Aug 2023, 9:54am
by roubaixtuesday
ANTONISH wrote: ↑6 Aug 2023, 9:48am
Charging an EV with a domestic charger takes several hours.
It will be interesting to see how motorists respond to finding their vehicle has been running in reverse charge for a substantial time and is only partly charged when setting off for work.
As for storage- this needs to be solved long before we fully decarbonise.
I think the way Vehicle to Grid (VtG) is mooted to work is that you choose a minimum charge level then the charger works to maintain that.
So if you're doing a 30 mile round trip commute, and nothing more planned, you choose say 30% and the charger will allow your battery to run down to that level.
You get back from work, plug it in, it discharges during peak period and you get paid. It then recharges to full on cheap wind powered overnight leccy when the demand is lower.
If you simply want it 100% all the time, you can do that but it ends up costing a lot more.
In practice, I don't think there is any strategy to roll out VtG beyond extremely limited pilots, and most chargers and cars aren't capable of it. It's a huge lost opportunity for essentially free grid storage, and a mystery to me why it's not being included in the infrastructure and car design.