Cycling UK Forum

EVs can't be "greenwashing". Misrepresentation of their advantages, disadvantages, effects, costs, harms and benefits can be.

(And in one of the other threads I posted how the advertising regulator is now intervening.)

Jonathan

We are being sold the idea that if we all drive EVs, we can carry on in our present transport habits with all of the current benefits and none of the problems. This is false – most of the problems are not related to fuel – but it's the idea we are being sold by the industry, and to a lesser extent by regulators and governments.

Yes, that's been alleged before. But I don't think that anyone posted any examples when I asked...

And to save time... labelling an electric vehicle as "zero emission" is clearly inaccurate. Or any other vehicle. Or any other means of propulsion.

Jonathan

Jdsk wrote: ↑11 Aug 2023, 9:49am Yes, that's been alleged before. But I don't think that anyone posted any examples when I asked...

And to save time... labelling an electric vehicle as "zero emission" is clearly inaccurate. Or any other vehicle. Or any other means of propulsion.

Yes, we all know that BEVs are not zero emission - not sure how your 'save time' remark is meant. There have been 70-odd pages in the BEV thread where you have repeatedly countered those who point out the public is being misled. Yes, in another decade their relative advantage over ICEv will have improved, but time and again it is pointed out that at the point of use, particulate emissions are on a par with conventional vehicles.

To build up a fleet of battery electric vehicles with similar performance and size (often faster and more massive) to what people have grown used to, in order to take advantage of the supply of electricity when marginal demand is supplied with mostly renewable (at present, it's almost all supplied by burning gas) requires a lot of carbon pollution, something we're constantly told is something we're trying to reduce and that the next few decades are critical.

You've talked about choosing a BEV with over 300 miles range which mirrors many people's thinking, but wouldn't it make sense - at least for the next 30 years until low carbon energy provides the power for most of the fabrication and running of a BEV - to legislate for much smaller batteried vehicles?

Carlton green wrote: ↑11 Aug 2023, 6:18am The Nissan, much as I think it a relative good BEV is heavy, over powered, substantial sized, and substantial CO2 footprint. The Nissan has a smaller refuel range than the Panda and what batteries it has aren’t necessarily the best use of scarce materials. Fiscally there might well be better green ways to invest the price of the Nissan, is greenwashing in process? I think so.

To my mind there’s a case for BEV’s really being electric bikes and electric cargo bikes rather than large cars, arguably the best use of resources is getting vehicles to be as small as is practical rather than as big as can be sold to them. Anyone for a Tesla four by four? It’s green you know, battery powered, just two tons in weight and a very necessary 0 - 60 mph time of 3.5 seconds . Price? A very reasonable £45 - 60k, the perfect investment for anyone who’s really concerned for the planet .
https://www.tesla.com/en_gb/modely
https://www.carwow.co.uk/tesla/model-y#gref

Totally, yes. And a Leaf is, with the BMW i3, one of the two least polluting regular size BEVs.

Bmblbzzz wrote: ↑11 Aug 2023, 9:43am We are being sold the idea that if we all drive EVs, we can carry on in our present transport habits with all of the current benefits and none of the problems. This is false – most of the problems are not related to fuel – but it's the idea we are being sold by the industry, and to a lesser extent by regulators and governments.

Biospace wrote: ↑11 Aug 2023, 10:16am ...
There have been 70-odd pages in the BEV thread where you have repeatedly countered those who point out the public is being misled.
...

Do you have an example of anyone saying that if we all drive EVs, we can carry on in our present transport habits with all of the current benefits and none of the problems?

Or any evidence that anyone believes it to be true?

Thanks

Jonathan

Bmblbzzz wrote: ↑10 Aug 2023, 8:10pm

Biospace wrote: ↑10 Aug 2023, 1:10pm Certainly tyre particulates, but regenerative braking reduces those from brakes. Even so, studies suggest particulate emissions (at the point of use) from EVs are of a similar order to those of ICEvs.

Does this refer to tyre particulates or total particulates? Reference?

Combined particulates at the point of use. There is much debate regarded whether the 'secondary' phase is taken into account, but there is little research into this.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 9421015910
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 972204058X

Jdsk wrote: ↑11 Aug 2023, 10:25am ...

Biospace wrote: ↑11 Aug 2023, 10:16am ...
There have been 70-odd pages in the BEV thread where you have repeatedly countered those who point out the public is being misled.
...

Do you have an example of anyone saying that if we all drive EVs, we can carry on in our present transport habits with all of the current benefits and none of the problems?

Or any evidence that anyone believes it to be true?

Thanks

Not sure how your question is related to my quoted comment.

But if prices remain high, as is quite possible, it will only be the cash-rich who are able to travel over a longer distance without multiple stops for recharging.

We are being sold the idea that if we all drive EVs, we can carry on in our present transport habits with all of the current benefits and none of the problems. This is false – most of the problems are not related to fuel – but it's the idea we are being sold by the industry, and to a lesser extent by regulators and governments.

Biospace wrote: ↑11 Aug 2023, 10:30am

Jdsk wrote: ↑11 Aug 2023, 10:25am ...

Biospace wrote: ↑11 Aug 2023, 10:16am ...
There have been 70-odd pages in the BEV thread where you have repeatedly countered those who point out the public is being misled.
...

Do you have an example of anyone saying that if we all drive EVs, we can carry on in our present transport habits with all of the current benefits and none of the problems?

Or any evidence that anyone believes it to be true?

Not sure how your question is related to my quoted comment.

It's a request for examples of misleading and for evidence of people being misled.

Jonathan

Jdsk wrote: ↑11 Aug 2023, 10:35am It's a request for examples of misleading and for evidence of people being misled.

This isn't an academic dissertation, it's a discussion forum open to all. To answer your question properly would involve hours of compiling quotes, official government documents, interviewing the public and more before beginning to summarise the evidence.

That The Guardian felt it was worthwhile publishing Rowan Atkinson's article that as an enthusiastic electric vehicle owner, he felt duped suggests something - they will have a rigourous process for deciding what to publish and what not to.

The response by a chemical engineer picked over small details which he was able to correct in a very flourishing manner, even though they did not affect Atkinson's central point. As I remarked, it was a little like two knowledgeable people appraising a work of art, one with a magnifying glass and one standing a little further back.

I believe most of us would have had in our mind that if we recharged a BEV over the course of a year, on average at least 30% to 40% of the energy would be sourced from renewables, at present. Yet closer inspection suggests that almost all of the energy supplied to match extra demands placed on the Grid are met by burning gas.

If it's repeatedly asserted that there's lots of misleading going on then it's reasonable to ask for examples of the misleading and whether it's had the effect of anyone being misled.

Jonathan

PS: But I'd basically like a thread where people who cycle could discuss their thoughts about EVs: practical help for others on living with them, fitting bikes in, racks, towing, sharing rather than owning them etc.

Jdsk wrote: ↑11 Aug 2023, 9:49am Yes, that's been alleged before. But I don't think that anyone posted any examples when I asked...
Jonathan

What examples would you like? Have you any examples of the opposite? Where are the voices telling us we have to consume less, of everything including travel.

PH wrote: ↑11 Aug 2023, 11:36am

Jdsk wrote: ↑11 Aug 2023, 9:49am Yes, that's been alleged before. But I don't think that anyone posted any examples when I asked...

What examples would you like?
...

On the "misleading", anything on:

We are being sold the idea that if we all drive EVs, we can carry on in our present transport habits with all of the current benefits and none of the problems.

On people actually having being misled: anything. Including asking lots of people what they think.

Jonathan

Jdsk wrote: ↑11 Aug 2023, 10:53am If it's repeatedly asserted that there's lots of misleading going on then it's reasonable to ask for examples of the misleading and whether it's had the effect of anyone being misled.

Jonathan

PS: But I'd basically like a thread where people who cycle could discuss their thoughts about EVs: practical help for others on living with them, fitting bikes in, racks, towing, sharing rather than owning them etc.

Well I suppose that you could start such a thread yourself and see how well it was supported? On the other hand you might chose to accept that none - besides the mods - can dictate the course of a thread and just let things rest there.

The thread is many pages long and has had some good content, much of which (I find) try’s to correct misperceptions. Is it a University treatise? No, far from it, it’s a conversation with folk often backing up their comments with - as a helpful bonus - reference data.

I very much object to electric cars being forced onto the population (examples and data in other earlier posts) but the discussion hasn’t left me closed to them. Would I have a BEV at the moment? If the price was right and as a second vehicle I’d certainly consider a Leaf with a non-small capacity battery, something with a range (after degradation) of around 140 miles could work for me and particularly so if top-up charge facilities were more available. Is there some way to go yet with battery technologies and charging infrastructure? Absolutely, and IMHO we’ve barely begun that journey.

Jdsk wrote: ↑11 Aug 2023, 11:50am

PH wrote: ↑11 Aug 2023, 11:36am

Jdsk wrote: ↑11 Aug 2023, 9:49am Yes, that's been alleged before. But I don't think that anyone posted any examples when I asked...

What examples would you like?
...

On the "misleading", anything on:

We are being sold the idea that if we all drive EVs, we can carry on in our present transport habits with all of the current benefits and none of the problems.

On people actually having being misled: anything. Including asking lots of people what they think.

Jonathan

You can be misled by omission. Try Googling "Should I buy an electric car" and see how many results answer that you shouldn't be buying any car. Or you could look at sales figures and advertising, the big EV selling point is range, where's the discussion on the cost of that, both resources and weight? Or look at what people are buying rather than look for what they might be saying, there's a couple of cars on both the best seller and most efficient lists, but the Venn diagram is depressing. Even more so if you research what's possible, but people like the big luxury vehicles, sod the consequences. Or look at the debate around ULEZ, great for Londoner's air quality, where's the discussion on all the other harmful effects. We are encouraged to carry on as if the answer is a change in fuel type, any message that that isn't OK gets buried, no one wants to hear it.

Biospace wrote: ↑11 Aug 2023, 10:26am

Bmblbzzz wrote: ↑10 Aug 2023, 8:10pm

Biospace wrote: ↑10 Aug 2023, 1:10pm Certainly tyre particulates, but regenerative braking reduces those from brakes. Even so, studies suggest particulate emissions (at the point of use) from EVs are of a similar order to those of ICEvs.

Does this refer to tyre particulates or total particulates? Reference?

Combined particulates at the point of use. There is much debate regarded whether the 'secondary' phase is taken into account, but there is little research into this.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 9421015910
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 972204058X

Thank you.