Random helmet-based abuse

[pjclinch]

Is that Yes or No? It's quite a simple question.

(I'll even allow "No: unless they also supply xyz ... " )

This is the sort of question where I'll typically reach for "I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that"...

Pete.

[Nearholmer]

What meaning is being assigned to the term “common sense” in this debate?

[Mike Sales]

What meaning is being assigned to the term “common sense” in this debate?

'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less. ' 'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things.

[Cugel]

What meaning is being assigned to the term “common sense” in this debate?

In any debate or discussion, "common sense" generally means, "Wot I fink". It's generally not commonly thought in practice (except, perhaps, in one's bubble or the favourite pub) and often far from sensible when closely examined or tested for coherence, logic or some other indication of practical value likely to serve the successful achievement of one's intents.

The "finking", in other words, is generally no such thing but merely the possession of a bald opinion, prejudice or some other conclusion derived not from thinking but by osmosis from one's peers or accepted "authorities" (the quotation marks indicating that such "authorities" are self-appointed powerful groups who themselves have only bald opinions, prejudices and other unthought-about stuff to offer).

We could use "good sense" instead. But that requires the difficult finking business too, inclusive of conclusions that can be tested for "good", itself a problematic concept.

[cycle tramp]

...
In short, not every matter we humans need to make decisions about can be informed by "studies".

Thanks for making the point. There is no value in discussing the questions in a setting where there's no commitment to evidence-based methods.

Jonathan

I think you're right. I would be very doubtful if any studies would accurately refect the type of riding that do and the environment in which I do it...
..further to this point, I would equally doubt whether or not such studies woould take into consideration other 'safety aids' which I may or may not be using.

[Nearholmer]

In any debate or discussion, "common sense" generally means, "Wot I fink".

Indeed. Except possibly when it is said by a politician or polemicist, in which case it is usually a conscious rhetorical technique aimed at persuading the listener that only an idiot or a person on the outer fringes of society could disagree with whatever proposition is being put forward.

Which is part of why I asked the question. The other part is that in formal philosophy it has had multiple different meanings at different times and in different places.

[roubaixtuesday]

...
In short, not every matter we humans need to make decisions about can be informed by "studies".

Thanks for making the point. There is no value in discussing the questions in a setting where there's no commitment to evidence-based methods.

Jonathan

Plato or Aristotle?

https://www.britannica.com/story/plato- ... hey-differ

[pjclinch]

...
In short, not every matter we humans need to make decisions about can be informed by "studies".

Thanks for making the point. There is no value in discussing the questions in a setting where there's no commitment to evidence-based methods.

I think you're right. I would be very doubtful if any studies would accurately refect the type of riding that do and the environment in which I do it...
..further to this point, I would equally doubt whether or not such studies woould take into consideration other 'safety aids' which I may or may not be using.

That a model doesn't tell you for sure what's best for you isn't the same as being useless for general policy advice. For example, wildebeest are safer if they migrate in herds, but that doesn't help the ones in a herd that get taken down by carnivores anyway, or fall and are trampled, but if you're trying to get as many wildebeest from A to B alive then you want a herd so that's the "wildebeest migration public health policy".

What's good for populations isn't necessarily the best for all individuals that are part of it (and vice versa, e.g. playing the lottery purely for financial gain is a mug's game at population level because the bank always comes out ahead, but if you luck out with a winning ticket then you're obviously ahead as an individual), but public health policy/advice that doesn't account for every single member of a population can still be beneficial overall. But with cycle helmets they're proposed as a general intervention for public benefit when we don't have a clear idea that they benefit public safety overall.

As Jonathan often points out, we need to be very clear about what specific questions we're actually asking when considering the answers, and it's not very likely that "am I, personally, on this particular trip, more or less likely to get a free ride to A&E if I wear this thing or not?" is one of the questions you'll get an answer to.

Pete.

[pjclinch]

What meaning is being assigned to the term “common sense” in this debate?

"It's obvious!"

[Cowsham]

What's good for populations isn't necessarily the best for all individuals that are part of it (and vice versa, e.g. playing the lottery purely for financial gain is a mug's game at population level because the bank always comes out ahead, but if you luck out with a winning ticket then you're obviously ahead as an individual), but public health policy/advice that doesn't account for every single member of a population can still be beneficial overall. But with cycle helmets they're proposed as a general intervention for public benefit when we don't have a clear idea that they benefit public safety overall.

Pete.

Public Health England got it very very wrong recently and the one lone voice in the isle of man who tried to tell the government there not to follow PHE got sacked, humiliated and discredited. She was proved right in the end and awarded £3.2m in compensation.

[Cowsham]

As Jonathan often points out, we need to be very clear about what specific questions we're actually asking when considering the answers, and it's not very likely that "am I, personally, on this particular trip, more or less likely to get a free ride to A&E if I wear this thing or not?" is one of the questions you'll get an answer to.

Pete.

Please clarify.

[pjclinch]

As Jonathan often points out, we need to be very clear about what specific questions we're actually asking when considering the answers, and it's not very likely that "am I, personally, on this particular trip, more or less likely to get a free ride to A&E if I wear this thing or not?" is one of the questions you'll get an answer to.

Pete.

Please clarify.

Please highlight what isn't clear.

[Cowsham]

As Jonathan often points out, we need to be very clear about what specific questions we're actually asking when considering the answers, and it's not very likely that "am I, personally, on this particular trip, more or less likely to get a free ride to A&E if I wear this thing or not?" is one of the questions you'll get an answer to.

Pete.

Please clarify.

Please highlight what isn't clear.

[mattheus]

What meaning is being assigned to the term “common sense” in this debate?

I'm not assigning any meaning; it's a form of words often used to justify rules, where no other evidence exists.

So when someone mandates helmets on the grounds of "common sense", please ask THEM what their meaning is!
_________________________________
Lots of interesting answers, but still no answer from our evidence-basing guru Mr jdsk. I shall be patient, I'm sure he has better things to do than read this thread on a grey Tuesday morning ...

[Nearholmer]

To me, PJClinch’s point is very clear.

The emboldened question is pretty much exactly the question I pose myself before each bike ride*, but I’m well aware that no public safety advice is ever likely to be able to answer it at a detailed, personal level, even advice derived from some far better understanding of crash dynamics, potential injury types, and the part helmets play than exists now.

*The answer is almost always “Well, it will likely reduce that already small probability to an even smaller one, and it imposes no disadvantage. so I’ll put it on.”. But, sometimes, in very hot, sunny weather the answer is “Well, it makes my head so ruddy hot in this sun that I’m more likely to get in trouble through heat exhaustion/confusion than anything else, so no, I won’t wear it, I’ll put on my broad-brimmed scarecrow hat.”. And, when I had my old shopping bike it was sometimes “I’m using the shopping bike. That thing is so slow that the energy involved in any sudden unplanned dismount is no different from when walking, so I won’t bother.” (My latest shopping bike is a lot quicker, and encourages energetic cycling).