Are you "Infected by a remainer mind virus"?

Use this board for general non-cycling-related chat, or to introduce yourself to the forum.
Jdsk
Posts: 24639
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Are you "Infected by a remainer mind virus"?

Post by Jdsk »

Psamathe wrote: 18 May 2023, 3:52pm
tim-b wrote: 18 May 2023, 2:27pm ...
I couldn’t disagree more. Because you cannot move forward or grow the country or deliver change or win back the trust of those who have lost faith in politics if you’re constantly focused on the arguments of the past."
https://labour.org.uk/press/keir-starme ... exit-work/ 4/7/22
If you fail to learn from past mistakes you are going to repeat them. And learning from past mistakes mens admitting they were mistakes.

In the case of Brexit a large part of the solution is in recognising the issues that it has caused. e.g. UK car manufacturers identify major specific issues linked to out leaving the EU (and the way we left the EU) yet Kemi Badenoch a staunch supporter of brexit refuses to recognised Brexit is anything other than perfect utopia "Badenoch claims problem raised by UK carmarkers worried about tariffs 'isn't to do with Brexit'" - denial of the problems means you stand no chance to solve them.
Yes.

It's essential both to understand what happened and to use that understanding in the planning of what you try to do next.

Jonathan

PS: I think that's tim+b quoting Starner...
Biospace
Posts: 2008
Joined: 24 Jun 2019, 12:23pm

Re: Are you "Infected by a remainer mind virus"?

Post by Biospace »

Jdsk wrote: 18 May 2023, 5:08pm
Biospace wrote: 18 May 2023, 4:53pm...
There has been a lot of chatter in this thread that it's mostly a Brexit issue, but as far as I can see it's a concern for native EU manufacturers, selling to their home market.
...
It depends what you mean by "it".
The Stellantis warning. Is it not a geographical/cost problem for the UK for as long as there isn't sufficient battery production here, rather than a Brexit issue?
Last edited by Biospace on 18 May 2023, 5:16pm, edited 1 time in total.
Jdsk
Posts: 24639
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Are you "Infected by a remainer mind virus"?

Post by Jdsk »

Psamathe wrote: 18 May 2023, 5:11pm
Jdsk wrote: 18 May 2023, 5:08pm ... But the TCA is entirely "a Brexit issue" as it wouldn't exist if the UK hadn't Left.

And clearly someone needs to explain this to the Secretary of State for Business and Trade.
And when they do explain it to her, do you think she'll listen or accept. She's a ideological zealot and one of the evangelical supporters of brexit. In her eyes by definition nothing bad can come out of Brexit.
I was interested in the immediate and rather different statement from "10 Downing Street". And the background briefing from the Chancellor. IIUC they think that the dates for increments in the rules of origin can be changed within normal operation of the TCA.

Jonathan
Jdsk
Posts: 24639
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Are you "Infected by a remainer mind virus"?

Post by Jdsk »

Biospace wrote: 18 May 2023, 5:13pm
Jdsk wrote: 18 May 2023, 5:08pm
Biospace wrote: 18 May 2023, 4:53pm...
There has been a lot of chatter in this thread that it's mostly a Brexit issue, but as far as I can see it's a concern for native EU manufacturers, selling to their home market.
...
It depends what you mean by "it".
The Stellantis warning. Is it not a geographical/cost problem for the UK for as long as there isn't sufficient battery production here, rather than a Brexit issue?
Section 10 of the Stellantis evidence is specific to the TCA and therefore only applies between the UK and the EU.

Jonathan
Biospace
Posts: 2008
Joined: 24 Jun 2019, 12:23pm

Re: Are you "Infected by a remainer mind virus"?

Post by Biospace »

Jdsk wrote: 18 May 2023, 5:17pm Section 10 of the Stellantis evidence is specific to the TCA and therefore only applies between the UK and the EU.
This is rather like speaking to Sir Humphrey, but I'll persist.

How would the present situation, with respect to the French/Italian conglomerate's concerns of higher UK costs be significantly different were we still within the EU?
Jdsk
Posts: 24639
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Are you "Infected by a remainer mind virus"?

Post by Jdsk »

Biospace wrote: 18 May 2023, 5:13pm
Jdsk wrote: 18 May 2023, 5:08pm It depends what you mean by "it".
The Stellantis warning. Is it not a geographical/cost problem for the UK for as long as there isn't sufficient battery production here, rather than a Brexit issue?
Section 10 of the Stellantis evidence is specific to the TCA and therefore only applies between the UK and the EU.

Jonathan

PS: I find it totally unhelpful and polarising to refer to things as being or not being "a Brexit issue". The UK Left the EU on 31 January 2020. But, as explained above, the TCA is now in operation and that defines the rules of origin and the dates of change.
Jdsk
Posts: 24639
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Are you "Infected by a remainer mind virus"?

Post by Jdsk »

Biospace wrote: 18 May 2023, 5:21pm
Jdsk wrote: 18 May 2023, 5:17pm Section 10 of the Stellantis evidence is specific to the TCA and therefore only applies between the UK and the EU.
How would the present situation, with respect to the French/Italian conglomerate's concerns of higher UK costs be significantly different were we still within the EU?
The TCA wouldn't exist. Therefore the rules of origin in the TCA wouldn't exist. Therefore the tariffs which follow from non-compliance with the rules of origin in the TCA wouldn't exist.

Jonathan
Jdsk
Posts: 24639
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Are you "Infected by a remainer mind virus"?

Post by Jdsk »

PS: Increasing rumours about a new battery plant in Somerset with connections to Jaguar Land Rover.

Somerset was probably the location for the next Tesla factory before they chose not to build it in the UK.

And it's worth reviewing what happened to Britishvolt.
Biospace
Posts: 2008
Joined: 24 Jun 2019, 12:23pm

Re: Are you "Infected by a remainer mind virus"?

Post by Biospace »

Jdsk wrote: 18 May 2023, 5:25pm The TCA wouldn't exist. Therefore the rules of origin in the TCA wouldn't exist. Therefore the tariffs which follow from non-compliance with the rules of origin in the TCA wouldn't exist.
Which only prompts the question of why manufacturers within the EU are concerned about 'it', with respect to selling within the EU.

This is a problem of economics - the raised prices of batteries - and the inability of the manufacturing industry to build sufficiently quickly to avoid the EU"s tightening rules.

I would imagine everyone will see sense and make the necessary adjustments. The threat to the EU car industry (and many UK jobs) is significant with Chinese imports already well under way - MG, BYD - as well as the US Inflation Reduction Act, a very substantial level of subsidy for their own industry.
Jdsk
Posts: 24639
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Are you "Infected by a remainer mind virus"?

Post by Jdsk »

Biospace wrote: 18 May 2023, 5:32pm
Jdsk wrote: 18 May 2023, 5:25pm The TCA wouldn't exist. Therefore the rules of origin in the TCA wouldn't exist. Therefore the tariffs which follow from non-compliance with the rules of origin in the TCA wouldn't exist.
Which only prompts the question of why manufacturers within the EU are concerned about 'it', with respect to selling within the EU.

This is a problem of economics - the raised prices of batteries - and the inability of the manufacturing industry to build sufficiently quickly to avoid the EU"s tightening rules.

I would imagine everyone will see sense and make the necessary adjustments. The threat to the EU car industry (and many UK jobs) is significant with Chinese imports already well under way - MG, BYD - as well as the US Inflation Reduction Act, a very substantial level of subsidy for their own industry.
That's why I asked what you meant by "it". You're now discussing several different things including the worldwide supply of EV batteries and the economic implications and the trade agreements between the EIU and the Rest of the World.

The specific conditions of the TCA that affect the rules of origin conditions for trade between the UK and the EU only apply to trade between the UK and the EU.

Jonathan
Biospace
Posts: 2008
Joined: 24 Jun 2019, 12:23pm

Re: Are you "Infected by a remainer mind virus"?

Post by Biospace »

Jdsk wrote: 18 May 2023, 5:37pm
That's why I asked what you meant by "it". You're now discussing several different things including the worldwide supply of EV batteries and the economic implications and the trade agreements between the EIU and the Rest of the World.

The specific conditions of the TCA that affect the rules of origin conditions for trade between the UK and the EU only apply to trade between the UK and the EU.

Jonathan
There has been discussion of the several factors which have prompted the warning from Stellantis throughout the last few pages.

However, I am merely highlighting that this warning has been reported as being a 'Brexit' or TCA issue, when in reality it is mostly a result of the unforeseen rapid rise in mineral prices and the EU having set out rules before this had happened, together with the time lag in sufficient factories being built. There exists the same issue within the EU.

British companies are particularly at risk according to Stellantis not because we're not within the EU, but because of our inability to organise EV battery production at sufficient levels, as yet - although this is not just a British problem, there is acute under-supply within the EU also.

It is worth noting that PSA, despite assurances at the time of the takeover, has repeatedly created concern for the feasibility of Vauxhall's Ellesmere Port facility, before battery production became an issue.

What motor manufacturers - including American ones operating within the EU and UK - are calling for is a little pragmatism from EU rule makers to preserve their industry and a concerted effort from the UK to ensure battery supply is sufficient and local, in order to prevent logistical problems.
Jdsk
Posts: 24639
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Are you "Infected by a remainer mind virus"?

Post by Jdsk »

Biospace wrote: 18 May 2023, 6:06pm There has been discussion of the several factors which have prompted the warning from Stellantis throughout the last few pages.

However, I am merely highlighting that this warning has been reported as being a 'Brexit' or TCA issue, when in reality it is mostly a result of the unforeseen rapid rise in mineral prices and the EU having set out rules before this had happened, together with the time lag in sufficient factories being built.

British companies are particularly at risk according to Stellantis not because we're not within the EU, but because of our inability to organise EV battery production at sufficient levels, as yet - although this is not just a British problem, there is acute under-supply within the EU also. However PSA, despite assurances at the time of the takeover, has repeatedly created concern for the feasibility of Vauxhall's Ellesmere Port facility, before battery production became an issue.

What motor manufacturers - including American ones operating within the EU and UK - are calling for is a little pragmatism from EU rule makers to preserve their industry and a concerted effort from the UK to ensure battery supply is sufficient and local, in order to prevent logistical problems.
My emboldening.

There are multiple factors.

Section 10 of the Stellantis evidence specifically identifies a problem that wouldn't exist if the UK was a Member State of the EU. You've asked about this and been directed to this. You're now denying that it exists.

Jonathan
pete75
Posts: 16370
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Are you "Infected by a remainer mind virus"?

Post by pete75 »

Biospace wrote: 18 May 2023, 5:21pm
Jdsk wrote: 18 May 2023, 5:17pm Section 10 of the Stellantis evidence is specific to the TCA and therefore only applies between the UK and the EU.
This is rather like speaking to Sir Humphrey, but I'll persist.

How would the present situation, with respect to the French/Italian conglomerate's concerns of higher UK costs be significantly different were we still within the EU?
No import tarrifs on UK manufactured vehicles being exported to mainland Europe.

Do you really think Brexit has had no effect on the ease and costs of exporting to Europe?
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
francovendee
Posts: 3148
Joined: 5 May 2009, 6:32am

Re: Are you "Infected by a remainer mind virus"?

Post by francovendee »

reohn2 wrote: 18 May 2023, 10:29am
roubaixtuesday wrote: 18 May 2023, 9:41am
I agree with much of this, but there's also a larger truth.

Most negotiations proceed by allowing a "win win" ie both parties emerge stronger.

The inherent problem with Brexit is that there was no win win ever possible; the concept inherently damages both parties, whatever the negotiation.

Compromising and collaborating where you're going to lose regardless is much, much harder.

Accepting "damage limitation" as the objective was impossible.
The whole problem began when UK negotiators went in with the attitude of "they need us more than we need them" which of course was dillusory,yes the EU suffers with the Uk leaving but nowhere near a much as the UK did,only made worst by the UK cutting off it's won nose to spite it's face by continuing it's dillusory attitude.
Indeed, falling over backwards to continue selling German cars in the UK and the easiest deal ever springs to mind. It was tosh then and there's still a mindset that our little island has some sort of special rights.
pete75
Posts: 16370
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Are you "Infected by a remainer mind virus"?

Post by pete75 »

Biospace wrote: 18 May 2023, 4:53pm
Distance from a gigafactory clearly adds to costs which is why the UK is seeking to build them on UK soil to supply our own factories, but I see BMW are building electric Minis in China in cooperation with their Chinese partner - perhaps this is a pointer to how many more lower range cars sold in the West will be made?
We haven't got our own factories - Toyota Japanese owned, Nissan French, Rolls-Royce German, Mini German, Bentley German, JLR Indian, Ford American, Vauxhall French/Italian.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
Post Reply