Are you "Infected by a remainer mind virus"?

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pete75
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Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Are you "Infected by a remainer mind virus"?

Post by pete75 »

reohn2 wrote: 19 May 2023, 8:07am
As it is it's been a complete and utter disaster from start to finish,so whatever anyone voted,leave or remain,the end result is still the same,disaster for the UK.And will,sooner rather than later,mean the UK will be forced to renegotiate cap in hand,our Brexit deal with the EU,where we once had a chance of leaving with a decent deal and some semblence of honour,the UK is on the back foot and looking stupid for ever leaving,not only in the EU but around the world,that situation is all thanks to 13 years of very poor Tory-fill yer own pockets-government that's left this country in a terrible state.
It was impossible to leave with a decent deal. Even Mrs May's slightly better deal was voted down by the Conservative party. The ERG had the whip hand and they wanted a hard Brexit. Farage did as , so what has he got to moan about.

If the Brexit deal is renegotiated it will either be entirely to the EU's benefit and/or require major concessions on the part of the UK, probably including freedom of movement. The latter would be a good thing because it will enable UK citizens to escape unemployment by going to do all the crap jobs in Poland, once their economy passes ours in 6 or 7 years time.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
Biospace
Posts: 2008
Joined: 24 Jun 2019, 12:23pm

Re: Are you "Infected by a remainer mind virus"?

Post by Biospace »

pete75 wrote: 18 May 2023, 6:14pm
Biospace wrote: 18 May 2023, 5:21pm How would the present situation, with respect to the French/Italian conglomerate's concerns of higher UK costs be significantly different were we still within the EU?
No import tarrifs on UK manufactured vehicles being exported to mainland Europe.
Do you really think Brexit has had no effect on the ease and costs of exporting to Europe?

Friends encountered EU intervention when trying to travel around the UK with their dogs, so it's clear frictions have increased hugely since we parted ways with Brussels. Lack of UK govt organisation has created a minefield for UK business, as is well documented. It's a crazy situation, given Europe's (that's a geographic use of the word) economic troubles.

As for there previously having been no tariffs on cars sold to the rest of the EU, previously would not a car with high non-EU content, or its imported components have been subjected to tariffs anyway?

As noted, the cost of energy for business is an important factor, the FT reports:

"Industry body the SMMT said its members reported that electricity prices were more than twice the levels at other
EU vehicle plants, with gas prices 60 per cent higher, calling this “critical” to the UK sector’s development.

One complaint is that while battery manufacturing qualifies for support available to energy-intensive industries,
carmakers themselves don’t. Regardless, the support on offer has historically fallen short of levels available
on the continent. UK Steel points out that the discounts available on wholesale electricity prices kick in at
£120 per MWh in Germany (and is more generous) compared with £185 per MWh in the UK. The trade body
says industry pays £15 per MWh in network charges in the UK, versus £1 in Germany"


https://www.ft.com/content/06e94086-e3f ... ae1a21260f
roubaixtuesday
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Re: Are you "Infected by a remainer mind virus"?

Post by roubaixtuesday »

Biospace wrote: 19 May 2023, 2:26pm As for there previously having been no tariffs on cars sold to the rest of the EU, previously would not a car with high non-EU content, or its imported components have been subjected to tariffs anyway?
No.

There are rules of origin on imports to the EU, and potentially tariffs, but once inside the single market, there is complete freedom of movement of goods.

That's the point of the single market and customs union. They allow complete free trade within the borders of the EU, hence the impact to trade of leaving.
roubaixtuesday
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Re: Are you "Infected by a remainer mind virus"?

Post by roubaixtuesday »

Biospace wrote: 19 May 2023, 2:26pm Friends encountered EU intervention when trying to travel around the UK with their dogs, so it's clear frictions have increased hugely since we parted ways with Brussels. Lack of UK govt organisation has created a minefield for UK business, as is well documented. It's a crazy situation, given Europe's (that's a geographic use of the word) economic troubles.
Yes, it is a crazy situation; Brexit was a crazy idea.

It's not "lack of UK govt organisation" though, it's inherent to leaving the single market and customs union. All of this was well known and warned of before leaving.

But that's where we are, and we need to move forward.
Jdsk
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Re: Are you "Infected by a remainer mind virus"?

Post by Jdsk »

Jdsk wrote: 19 May 2023, 8:38am
roubaixtuesday wrote: 19 May 2023, 8:35am
tim-b wrote: 19 May 2023, 8:20am It's built into the terms of the Trade and Cooperation Agreement (TCA) every five years, 2025 is the next date. Right when our political leaders will be scrapping for the 2025 GE in the UK, so they won't be concentrating...
I've read that the 2025 review is a technical matter rather than a renegotiation, at official rather than political level.

Any major changes are independent of it, and would require a new political process.

I'll see if I can find a link later.
Yes, it's a "review of implementation", not a renegotiation.

David Henig yesterday:
https://twitter.com/DavidHenigUK/status ... 6264920064
But of course the parties can change anything they want whenever they want by mutual consent. And the increment dates for the rules of origin could fall into that category: some major manufacturers have made it clear they would like delay and there's an environmental hook on which to hang it.

And it doesn't feel as if it would be too toxic to the Conservative extremists.

Jonathan
Jdsk
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Re: Are you "Infected by a remainer mind virus"?

Post by Jdsk »

Jdsk wrote: 18 May 2023, 5:29pm PS: Increasing rumours about a new battery plant in Somerset with connections to Jaguar Land Rover.

Somerset was probably the location for the next Tesla factory before they chose not to build it in the UK.

And it's worth reviewing what happened to Britishvolt.
Today's rumours include £500M of subsidy:
https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... lant-in-uk

Of course production in the UK would directly affect the tariffs related to the rules of origin in the TCA. But it won't reduce the pressure to shift the dates of increment because they're due before there'll be significant production from this factory. if it's built.

Jonathan
Jdsk
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Re: Are you "Infected by a remainer mind virus"?

Post by Jdsk »

Jdsk wrote: 19 May 2023, 3:21pm
Jdsk wrote: 18 May 2023, 5:29pm PS: Increasing rumours about a new battery plant in Somerset with connections to Jaguar Land Rover.

Somerset was probably the location for the next Tesla factory before they chose not to build it in the UK.

And it's worth reviewing what happened to Britishvolt.
Today's rumours include £500M of subsidy:
https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... lant-in-uk

Of course production in the UK would directly affect the tariffs related to the rules of origin in the TCA. But it won't reduce the pressure to shift the dates of increment because they're due before there'll be significant production from this factory. if it's built.
BBC News summarising the rumours:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-somerset-65645201

... Gravity Smart Campus, Somerset... up to 9,000 jobs...

Jonathan
roubaixtuesday
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Re: Are you "Infected by a remainer mind virus"?

Post by roubaixtuesday »

Farage agreeing on the failure of Brexit.

Naturally, the fiasco is all the fault of other people, nothing to with him.

https://www.politico.eu/article/nigel-f ... as-failed/
pete75
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Re: Are you "Infected by a remainer mind virus"?

Post by pete75 »

roubaixtuesday wrote: 20 May 2023, 8:47am Farage agreeing on the failure of Brexit.

Naturally, the fiasco is all the fault of other people, nothing to with him.

https://www.politico.eu/article/nigel-f ... as-failed/
Yes, no Brexiters are at all to blame for the Fiasco. It may lead them further to the right and lead to increasingly nationalistic views.https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... e-refugees
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
Biospace
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Re: Are you "Infected by a remainer mind virus"?

Post by Biospace »

roubaixtuesday wrote: 19 May 2023, 3:06pm
Biospace wrote: 19 May 2023, 2:26pm As for there previously having been no tariffs on cars sold to the rest of the EU, previously would not a car with high non-EU content, or its imported components have been subjected to tariffs anyway?
No. There are rules of origin on imports to the EU, and potentially tariffs, but once inside the single market, there is complete freedom of movement of goods.

That's the point of the single market and customs union. They allow complete free trade within the borders of the EU, hence the impact to trade of leaving.

Sure, I realise once within the EU there are no trade barriers, but there are import tariffs for goods. If a Chinese car is imported then there is a 10% tariff, for example. I suspect it's the same, or going to be the same for EV batteries from the Far East, hence the rush to build gigafactories for the EU motor industry.

I know the Peugeot/Stellantis CEO has been moaning that the tariffs on import to China are considerably higher.

Battery technology has already advanced since the original Nissan Leaf arrived but the curve is still steep with new technologies which [XAP]Bob can no doubt tell us all about. It's quite possible that within a decade, Lithium batteries will be being phased out. Which isn't to say we shouldn't be subsidising gigafactories, as they'll transfer to newer technologies as and when they arrive.

I'm looking forwards to a low-polluting, low carbon footprint lightweight battery for a bike which costs little and will assist me over 70 miles on a charge.
Jdsk
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Re: Are you "Infected by a remainer mind virus"?

Post by Jdsk »

roubaixtuesday wrote: 17 May 2023, 7:37pm
Jdsk wrote: 17 May 2023, 7:31pm
roubaixtuesday wrote: 17 May 2023, 7:25pmWhich takes us back to the very first post of the thread.

Brexit has failed and it is because of its inherent problems. Until this reality is accepted and supporters of Brexit stop blaming remainer viruses, the EU or anything else than their own responsibility, we cannot move on.

Happily, all the signs are that this reality is now largely accepted by the public, which means we can at least start to limit further damage.
I just don't know. We know that an increasing number of people and now a strong majority tell us that it was a mistake, or similar. But do they think that the outcome was inevitable, or contingent on, for example, poor execution by the government?
I don't think it goes that deep for most people. Just "Brexit was a rubbish idea"
The Times must be following this forum! They've just published the results of a survey exploring this. And three specific issues that were topical at the crucial moment: "borders", "sovereignty", and "money sent to Brussels".

The main article is paywalled, but there's some of it on Twitter:
https://t.co/hFEdoEVeKE
https://twitter.com/TomHCalver/status/1 ... 1946089472

including:

Image

Image

Jonathan
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Paulatic
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Re: Are you "Infected by a remainer mind virus"?

Post by Paulatic »

Whatever I am, wherever I am, this is me. This is my life

https://stcleve.wordpress.com/category/lejog/
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roubaixtuesday
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Re: Are you "Infected by a remainer mind virus"?

Post by roubaixtuesday »

Jdsk wrote: 21 May 2023, 11:33am
roubaixtuesday wrote: 17 May 2023, 7:37pm
Jdsk wrote: 17 May 2023, 7:31pm
I just don't know. We know that an increasing number of people and now a strong majority tell us that it was a mistake, or similar. But do they think that the outcome was inevitable, or contingent on, for example, poor execution by the government?
I don't think it goes that deep for most people. Just "Brexit was a rubbish idea"
The Times must be following this forum! They've just published the results of a survey exploring this. And three specific issues that were topical at the crucial moment: "borders", "sovereignty", and "money sent to Brussels".

The main article is paywalled, but there's some of it on Twitter:
https://t.co/hFEdoEVeKE
https://twitter.com/TomHCalver/status/1 ... 1946089472

including:

Image

Image

Jonathan
Very interesting, thank you.

An overwhelming proportion of people now think it's
a failure - only 9% deem it a success!

Most people now believe ir was a bad idea all along, but Conservative voters blame the implementation.

Which explains the ongoing schism in the Tory party as the "pure Brexit" ideologues continue their denial of reality.
Psamathe
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Re: Are you "Infected by a remainer mind virus"?

Post by Psamathe »

roubaixtuesday wrote: 21 May 2023, 1:15pm ...
Most people now believe ir was a bad idea all along, but Conservative voters blame the implementation.

Which explains the ongoing schism in the Tory party as the "pure Brexit" ideologues continue their denial of reality.
I wonder how the psychological factors influence how people answer these questions (even confidentially, like "admitting to themselves"). Might it be that some (a reasonable %age) who voted Brexit and now see the disaster it is cannot admit to themselves how they fell "hook line and sinker" for the lies and thus should take some of the blame for the costs and disaster. Easier in ones own mind to "take the view" that it's the implementation that caused the disaster (so they don't feel their vote contributed to the disaster).

Maybe psychological factors mean a %age more people would be "don't know" or "neither" or "bad implementation" rather than admit is was just daft and they voted for that daft idea.

Ian
reohn2
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Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Are you "Infected by a remainer mind virus"?

Post by reohn2 »

Psamathe wrote: 21 May 2023, 5:03pm ..... Easier in ones own mind to "take the view" that it's the implementation that caused the disaster (so they don't feel their vote contributed to the disaster).......

Ian
But it is the implementaion of the hard Brexit and unbelievable ignorance and arrogance of just how unprepared our stupid politicians were for running into Brexit like a bull in a china shop!
We were never going to have the same deal or,as the same stupid politicians claimed,be better off out of the EU.

That said,I'm more convinced now than ever that some people bought the whole Brexit cult and now just can't accept the lunacy and litany of lies they were fed.
Those people will point out how corrupt the EU is and I agree with them,claim it was all leading to a united states of Europe with a European army etc,etc but the fact is the UK had,as one of the top contributors and influential members,had a strong voice in preventing that happening,now we have no voice in which way the EU goes from here.
The fact remains hard or soft Brexit this country was far,far better off in the EU than out and now we the people of the UK face very hard road ahead because of the lies peddled by corrupt,overwhelmingly Tory conspirators whose only interest was their own pockets.
That is something I for one will never forgive the Tories for in misleading my country to completete disaster and the same goes fornthose who voted for Brexit and won't admit how they were led by lies and deceit of the likes of Farage,Johnson,Reece mogg,Widdicombe,Gove and a host of other selfseeking snake oil sales men and women.
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"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
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