Are you "Infected by a remainer mind virus"?

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Jdsk
Posts: 24627
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Are you "Infected by a remainer mind virus"?

Post by Jdsk »

Jdsk wrote: 18 May 2023, 5:10pm
...
Could someone explain how this 10% tariff is applied to the motor industry? Is it applied on import of parts, or to the cost price of the entire vehicle? Does it apply to UK vehicles not exported to the EU?
...
"Manufacturing after Brexit":
https://ukandeu.ac.uk/wp-content/upload ... INAL-2.pdf

Stellantis evidence to the Select Committee:
https://committees.parliament.uk/writte ... 18270/pdf/
And, for those who prefer video, D G Bailey today:
https://twitter.com/CGTNEurope/status/1 ... nV3YYuAAAA

Jonathan
tim-b
Posts: 2091
Joined: 10 Oct 2009, 8:20am

Re: Are you "Infected by a remainer mind virus"?

Post by tim-b »

PS: I think that's tim+b quoting Starner...
Yes, for anyone in doubt, that is the case... I'll have to use bolder bold "" next time :)

So who do you vote for? (That is my comment :) )
~~~~¯\(ツ)/¯~~~~
Biospace
Posts: 2006
Joined: 24 Jun 2019, 12:23pm

Re: Are you "Infected by a remainer mind virus"?

Post by Biospace »

Jdsk wrote: 18 May 2023, 6:13pm There are multiple factors.

Section 10 of the Stellantis evidence specifically identifies a problem that wouldn't exist if the UK was a Member State of the EU. You've asked about this and been directed to this. You're now denying that it exists.
Jonathan
If that's how it read I apologise it was so unclear for you.

Here's point 10 of the Stellantis warning:

10.
How ready are UK vehicle producers for the EU–UK Trade and Cooperation Agreement (TCA)
rules of origin (ROO) phasing in from 2024?
l) We have concerns on the impacts of the competitiveness of the UK as a player within the
global automotive industry with the planned tightening of the Rules of Origin for batteries in
2024 following the rapidly changing operating environment due to Ukraine conflict and raw
material cost inflation and supply issues.
m) When we decided on our footprint for 2024 production (decision confirmed in 2021), we
had planned on meeting the Regional Value Content of the vehicles at 45% to avoid import
duties on trade flows between the EU and UK. Due to the various external headwinds, the
prices of raw materials which is all none originating increases substantially, that we are now
unable to meet these Rules of Origin.
n) Our request to government is to gain agreement with the EU to maintain the current Rules
of Origin until 2027 and to review PEM operating rules, in particular with Serbia and
Morocco.
o) Much stricter rules will create significant challenges to bilateral trade of Electric Vehicles and
batteries and with unachievable Regional Value Content targets. Trade between the UK and
Written evidence from Stellantis (BEV0001)
EU would be subject to 10% tariffs making exports uncompetitive in comparison to imports
from Japanese and South Korean manufacturers, as well as domestic production.
p) We are in danger of limiting affordable access to mobility.



What I have already asked, but not received any reply for, is how these tariffs apply. Perhaps there is a complete misunderstanding on my part, which would explain why there is so much agitation at what I'm saying?

Critically, are UK made vehicles exported to the EU required to have a higher local (ie UK or EU) content (or will they be) than those made within the EU's boundaries and sold there? If so, then clearly this is a 'Brexit'/TCA problem, as headlines have been implying.

If not, then as Stellantis appears to be saying, the problem is mostly that of the location and output of battery factories, and that the UK industry will not survive without them. Quite so, as informed people have been advising for several years.


Here's David Bailey writing in 2020,
"ACEA’s [Euro car makers' association] stance signals how some key EU industries are concerned about the possible impact of the EU’s approach to the negotiations."

https://ukandeu.ac.uk/rules-of-origin-i ... k-eu-deal/
Carlton green
Posts: 3645
Joined: 22 Jun 2019, 12:27pm

Re: Are you "Infected by a remainer mind virus"?

Post by Carlton green »

tim-b wrote: 18 May 2023, 7:52pm
PS: I think that's tim+b quoting Starner...
Yes, for anyone in doubt, that is the case... I'll have to use bolder bold "" next time :)

So who do you vote for? (That is my comment :) )
"There are some who say ‘We don’t need to make Brexit work. We need to reverse it.’

I couldn’t disagree more. Because you cannot move forward or grow the country or deliver change or win back the trust of those who have lost faith in politics if you’re constantly focused on the arguments of the past."

https://labour.org.uk/press/keir-starme ... exit-work/ 4/7/22
When I first read it I thought the quote was obvious enough. As for Starmer well he’s right, and the reason why we have a Tory Government now is because his own party refused to recognise that Brexit is a poison chalice. Right or wrong if you want to get elected and be of some use to the electorate then don’t get involved with the likes of Brexit. Labour chose the remain side and folk voted accordingly (ie. Tory) and they will again, do so, if Labour are seem to be - or even painted as - a party of remainers.

There’s no way back and nothing to be gained, by Starmer, in being less than Brexit positive.

Who do you vote for? Vote Labour at the next General Election.
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
Biospace
Posts: 2006
Joined: 24 Jun 2019, 12:23pm

Re: Are you "Infected by a remainer mind virus"?

Post by Biospace »

Jdsk wrote: 18 May 2023, 7:28pm
Jdsk wrote: 18 May 2023, 5:10pm
...
Could someone explain how this 10% tariff is applied to the motor industry? Is it applied on import of parts, or to the cost price of the entire vehicle? Does it apply to UK vehicles not exported to the EU?
...
"Manufacturing after Brexit":
https://ukandeu.ac.uk/wp-content/upload ... INAL-2.pdf

Stellantis evidence to the Select Committee:
https://committees.parliament.uk/writte ... 18270/pdf/
And, for those who prefer video, D G Bailey today:
https://twitter.com/CGTNEurope/status/1 ... nV3YYuAAAA

Jonathan
Have now listened to the Bailey interview, who towards the end raises my concern for high energy prices in the UK. And it seems that the problem is the lack of local battery manufacturing in the UK, although it's not made clear if the local origin tariff is only applicable to the UK. Otherwise it's a clear interview.

The link to a 74 page 'Manufacturing after Brexit' report unfortunately isn't something I'll be studying, time doesn't allow for such an indulgence.
pete75
Posts: 16370
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Are you "Infected by a remainer mind virus"?

Post by pete75 »

Carlton green wrote: 18 May 2023, 10:27pm
tim-b wrote: 18 May 2023, 7:52pm
PS: I think that's tim+b quoting Starner...
Yes, for anyone in doubt, that is the case... I'll have to use bolder bold "" next time :)

So who do you vote for? (That is my comment :) )
"There are some who say ‘We don’t need to make Brexit work. We need to reverse it.’

I couldn’t disagree more. Because you cannot move forward or grow the country or deliver change or win back the trust of those who have lost faith in politics if you’re constantly focused on the arguments of the past."

https://labour.org.uk/press/keir-starme ... exit-work/ 4/7/22
When I first read it I thought the quote was obvious enough. As for Starmer well he’s right, and the reason why we have a Tory Government now is because his own party refused to recognise that Brexit is a poison chalice. Right or wrong if you want to get elected and be of some use to the electorate then don’t get involved with the likes of Brexit. Labour chose the remain side and folk voted accordingly (ie. Tory) and they will again, do so, if Labour are seem to be - or even painted as - a party of remainers.

There’s no way back and nothing to be gained, by Starmer, in being less than Brexit positive.

Who do you vote for? Vote Labour at the next General Election.
I will not be voting for Starmer's Brexit supporting party. The man's a hypocrite too, he was totally opposed to Brexit and has now switched because he thinks it's a vote winner. He may suceed in getting some of the "red wall" vote back but, at the same time,will lose other traditional Labour supporters. How long before he starts to adopt the populist policies linked to Brexit, like English nationalism, dislike of immigrants etc. He also needs to take note that even the likes of Farage see Brexit as a failure.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
Carlton green
Posts: 3645
Joined: 22 Jun 2019, 12:27pm

Re: Are you "Infected by a remainer mind virus"?

Post by Carlton green »

He also needs to take note that even the likes of Farage see Brexit as a failure.
I’ve seen a few people say similar to that on this thread; it could be a misunderstanding and it could misinform others. As I understand it Farage doesn’t regret Brexit but instead believes that it has been inadequately negotiated and poorly implemented - or rather something along those lines - and hence isn’t working as well as it should be. Farage’s comments were made in a BBC News Night interview a few days ago and have been, I believe, widely misreported.

Here’s one report that might be of some help: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 39654.html
It was put to Mr Farage, who presents a show on GB News after quitting politics, that recent polling appeared to show an increasing number of people who voted for Brexit now regret the decision and that the UK was the only G7 economy not to return to pre-pandemic levels.

“I don’t think that for a moment,” Mr Farage replied when he was asked if the UK would have been better off staying in the EU, the world’s largest single market area. “But what I do think is we haven’t actually benefitted from Brexit economically, what we could have done.”

“I mean, what Brexit’s proved, I’m afraid, is that our politicians are about as useless as the commissioners in Brussels were,” he added. “We’ve mismanaged this totally, and if you look at simple things…such as takeovers, such as corporation tax, we are driving business away from our country.

“Arguably, now we’re back in control, we’re regulating our own businesses even more than they were as EU members. Brexit has failed.”

Any remainer and any (politically) left leaning perfectionist who doesn’t like Labour should remember that a failure to vote Labour enables a Tory win. On election day, the best thing for any remainer to do is to vote Labour for a better future than the (hard Brexit) Tory party will give us - pragmatism is a wonderful thing.
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
reohn2
Posts: 45158
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Are you "Infected by a remainer mind virus"?

Post by reohn2 »

Carlton green wrote: 19 May 2023, 6:14am
He also needs to take note that even the likes of Farage see Brexit as a failure.
I’ve seen a few people say similar to that on this thread; it could be a misunderstanding and it could misinform others. As I understand it Farage doesn’t regret Brexit but instead believes that it has been inadequately negotiated and poorly implemented - or rather something along those lines - and hence isn’t working as well as it should be. Farage’s comments were made in a BBC News Night interview a few days ago and have been, I believe, widely misreported.

Here’s one report that might be of some help: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 39654.html
It's correct that Farage believes Brexit hasn't been implemented as it could've been and however much as a remainer it sticks in my craw to agree with him he's right and the UK could've negotiated a far better leaving deal.
But one thing's for sure Farage like everyone else but a few idiotic stuff shirted and unprepared politicians had no say in how we'd leave or what was to be the leaving deal.
As it is it's been a complete and utter disaster from start to finish,so whatever anyone voted,leave or remain,the end result is still the same,disaster for the UK.And will,sooner rather than later,mean the UK will be forced to renegotiate cap in hand,our Brexit deal with the EU,where we once had a chance of leaving with a decent deal and some semblence of honour,the UK is on the back foot and looking stupid for ever leaving,not only in the EU but around the world,that situation is all thanks to 13 years of very poor Tory-fill yer own pockets-government that's left this country in a terrible state.
Any remainer and any (politically) left leaning perfectionist who doesn’t like Labour should remember that a failure to vote Labour enables a Tory win. On election day, the best thing for any remainer to do is to vote Labour for a better future than the (hard Brexit) Tory party will give us - pragmatism is a wonderful thing.
That depends on constituency,there are many where Labour hasn't a cat in hell's chance of getting in,such constituences which will favour a LibDem MP or even a Green party member shouldn't be challenged by Labour as it's wasted effort.
One thing's for sure though the Tories have done far too much damage and need booting out as soon as is humanly possible and though upto present I've not a lot of love for Starmer I will be voting Labour as they're the only viable alternative in my constituency.
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
tim-b
Posts: 2091
Joined: 10 Oct 2009, 8:20am

Re: Are you "Infected by a remainer mind virus"?

Post by tim-b »

snip...sooner rather than later,mean the UK will be forced to renegotiate our Brexit deal cap in hand,with the EU...
It's built into the terms of the Trade and Cooperation Agreement (TCA) every five years, 2025 is the next date. Right when our political leaders will be scrapping for the 2025 GE in the UK, so they won't be concentrating...
~~~~¯\(ツ)/¯~~~~
roubaixtuesday
Posts: 5814
Joined: 18 Aug 2015, 7:05pm

Re: Are you "Infected by a remainer mind virus"?

Post by roubaixtuesday »

tim-b wrote: 19 May 2023, 8:20am
snip...sooner rather than later,mean the UK will be forced to renegotiate our Brexit deal cap in hand,with the EU...
It's built into the terms of the Trade and Cooperation Agreement (TCA) every five years, 2025 is the next date. Right when our political leaders will be scrapping for the 2025 GE in the UK, so they won't be concentrating...
I've read that the 2025 review is a technical matter rather than a renegotiation, at official rather than political level.

Any major changes are independent of it, and would require a new political process.

I'll see if I can find a link later.
Jdsk
Posts: 24627
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Are you "Infected by a remainer mind virus"?

Post by Jdsk »

roubaixtuesday wrote: 19 May 2023, 8:35am
tim-b wrote: 19 May 2023, 8:20am
snip...sooner rather than later,mean the UK will be forced to renegotiate our Brexit deal cap in hand,with the EU...
It's built into the terms of the Trade and Cooperation Agreement (TCA) every five years, 2025 is the next date. Right when our political leaders will be scrapping for the 2025 GE in the UK, so they won't be concentrating...
I've read that the 2025 review is a technical matter rather than a renegotiation, at official rather than political level.

Any major changes are independent of it, and would require a new political process.

I'll see if I can find a link later.
Yes, it's a "review of implementation", not a renegotiation.

David Henig yesterday:
https://twitter.com/DavidHenigUK/status ... 6264920064

Jonathan
Carlton green
Posts: 3645
Joined: 22 Jun 2019, 12:27pm

Re: Are you "Infected by a remainer mind virus"?

Post by Carlton green »

reohn2 wrote: 19 May 2023, 8:07am
Carlton green wrote: 19 May 2023, 6:14am
He also needs to take note that even the likes of Farage see Brexit as a failure.
I’ve seen a few people say similar to that on this thread; it could be a misunderstanding and it could misinform others. As I understand it Farage doesn’t regret Brexit but instead believes that it has been inadequately negotiated and poorly implemented - or rather something along those lines - and hence isn’t working as well as it should be. Farage’s comments were made in a BBC News Night interview a few days ago and have been, I believe, widely misreported.

Here’s one report that might be of some help: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 39654.html
It's correct that Farage believes Brexit hasn't been implemented as it could've been and however much as a remainer it sticks in my craw to agree with him he's right and the UK could've negotiated a far better leaving deal.
But one thing's for sure Farage like everyone else but a few idiotic stuff shirted and unprepared politicians had no say in how we'd leave or what was to be the leaving deal.
As it is it's been a complete and utter disaster from start to finish,so whatever anyone voted,leave or remain,the end result is still the same,disaster for the UK.And will,sooner rather than later,mean the UK will be forced to renegotiate cap in hand,our Brexit deal with the EU,where we once had a chance of leaving with a decent deal and some semblence of honour,the UK is on the back foot and looking stupid for ever leaving,not only in the EU but around the world,that situation is all thanks to 13 years of very poor Tory-fill yer own pockets-government that's left this country in a terrible state.
Any remainer and any (politically) left leaning perfectionist who doesn’t like Labour should remember that a failure to vote Labour enables a Tory win. On election day, the best thing for any remainer to do is to vote Labour for a better future than the (hard Brexit) Tory party will give us - pragmatism is a wonderful thing.
That depends on constituency,there are many where Labour hasn't a cat in hell's chance of getting in,such constituences which will favour a LibDem MP or even a Green party member shouldn't be challenged by Labour as it's wasted effort.
One thing's for sure though the Tories have done far too much damage and need booting out as soon as is humanly possible and though upto present I've not a lot of love for Starmer I will be voting Labour as they're the only viable alternative in my constituency.
Yep, much to agree with there. 👍
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
pete75
Posts: 16370
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Are you "Infected by a remainer mind virus"?

Post by pete75 »

Carlton green wrote: 19 May 2023, 6:14am
He also needs to take note that even the likes of Farage see Brexit as a failure.
I’ve seen a few people say similar to that on this thread; it could be a misunderstanding and it could misinform others. As I understand it Farage doesn’t regret Brexit but instead believes that it has been inadequately negotiated and poorly implemented - or rather something along those lines - and hence isn’t working as well as it should be. Farage’s comments were made in a BBC News Night interview a few days ago and have been, I believe, widely misreported.

Here’s one report that might be of some help: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 39654.html
It was put to Mr Farage, who presents a show on GB News after quitting politics, that recent polling appeared to show an increasing number of people who voted for Brexit now regret the decision and that the UK was the only G7 economy not to return to pre-pandemic levels.

“I don’t think that for a moment,” Mr Farage replied when he was asked if the UK would have been better off staying in the EU, the world’s largest single market area. “But what I do think is we haven’t actually benefitted from Brexit economically, what we could have done.”

“I mean, what Brexit’s proved, I’m afraid, is that our politicians are about as useless as the commissioners in Brussels were,” he added. “We’ve mismanaged this totally, and if you look at simple things…such as takeovers, such as corporation tax, we are driving business away from our country.

“Arguably, now we’re back in control, we’re regulating our own businesses even more than they were as EU members. Brexit has failed.”

Any remainer and any (politically) left leaning perfectionist who doesn’t like Labour should remember that a failure to vote Labour enables a Tory win. On election day, the best thing for any remainer to do is to vote Labour for a better future than the (hard Brexit) Tory party will give us - pragmatism is a wonderful thing.
The standard Brexiter excuse. It's harmed our economy, as was predicted, but that's because of the way it was implemented. What a farcical argument.
Remember the EU is not obliged to do Britain any more favours than it does any other third country.

What did you expect to happen as a result of Brexit that would have benefited the UK economy.

Oh and I'll vote how I see fit not how you instruct me.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
Psamathe
Posts: 17646
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Are you "Infected by a remainer mind virus"?

Post by Psamathe »

pete75 wrote: 18 May 2023, 11:06pm ...
I will not be voting for Starmer's Brexit supporting party. The man's a hypocrite too, he was totally opposed to Brexit and has now switched because he thinks it's a vote winner. He may suceed in getting some of the "red wall" vote back but, at the same time,will lose other traditional Labour supporters. How long before he starts to adopt the populist policies linked to Brexit, like English nationalism, dislike of immigrants etc. He also needs to take note that even the likes of Farage see Brexit as a failure.
It was some time back I thought Starmer had run out of fences to sit on, scared of upsetting anybody with a vote. But he seems to be finding ever more.

I had big hopes for him when he took over the leadership but I think he's trying to be "middle ground" in a not very clever manner, just but taking the nondescript path on everything (e.g. the public order act needs "time to bed-in" - doesn't upset those who sat in M25 protest delays and doesn't say it's working).

Maybe one of the issues with Brexit is it's still seen as a binary thing. Support Brexit and you want to end diplomatic relations with the EU and build a bigger fence whereas support Remain and you want to rejoin the EU tomorrow.

My choice would be to rejoin the EU tomorrow but no politician is going to propose such support 'cos it wont happed (the EU would tell the UK to F-off after the recent split). It comes down to how bold the renegotiation plans are, small narrow deals improving virtually nothing to joining the Single Market. From what I've seen (but I've certainly not seen everything) Starmer is just being vague - aiming to upset nobody, supporters of brexit see him "having our cake and eating it" whilst Remain supporters see a move closer to the EU.

As a PM Starmer would undoubtedly be far far far better than the many Conservatives who've tried the job in the recent months but he is looking like it would be a bit of a waste of time. Maybe once PM he'd stop being so worried about upsetting any voters?

When be became Party leader I would have voted for Labour (on potential rather than anything else). Now I also wouldn't though in reality I'll be happy if he becomes PM (in that it's either him or Conservatives) - though ideally in a hung Parliament.

Ian
Psamathe
Posts: 17646
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Are you "Infected by a remainer mind virus"?

Post by Psamathe »

Carlton green wrote: 19 May 2023, 6:14am
He also needs to take note that even the likes of Farage see Brexit as a failure.
I’ve seen a few people say similar to that on this thread; it could be a misunderstanding and it could misinform others. As I understand it Farage doesn’t regret Brexit but instead believes that it has been inadequately negotiated and poorly implemented - or rather something along those lines - and hence isn’t working as well as it should be. Farage’s comments were made in a BBC News Night interview a few days ago and have been, I believe, widely misreported. ...
I saw the interview on TV and it really wasn't coherent enough to merit debate.

Basically Farage got what he wanted (hard Brexit) and it's been a disaster for the UK so now he can't admit he was wrong so has to blame everybody else. That's pretty well all he was doing.

Ian
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