The future of the UK EU relationship

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Nearholmer
Posts: 6332
Joined: 26 Mar 2022, 7:13am

Re: Are you "Infected by a remainer mind virus"?

Post by Nearholmer »

Yes, a leave vote would still have had to have been implemented but better so by a cross party group led by prominent and experienced leavers who would be answerable to the whole of Westminster on a free vote basis.
Assuming you mean “experienced leaders”, I completely agree with you, and wasted ink writing to several MPs to suggest exactly what you suggest above, on the day the result was announced.

May’s greatest failure was to attempt to solve the w riddle she’d inherited on her own, or at least within one party, and not seeking to create a cross-party council of the wise. She failed to act in a statesperson-like way at just the very moment that was needed, when faced with a matter that was far bigger than her, and far bigger than one party.

The festering wound could have been at least partially healed, and a far better practical set of outcomes arrived at, by recognising that the result of the vote was a problem-opportunity that belonged to the whole country, not just one party.
DevonDamo
Posts: 1122
Joined: 24 May 2011, 1:42am

Re: Are you "Infected by a remainer mind virus"?

Post by DevonDamo »

853 wrote: 4 May 2023, 1:43pmAnd what about the Pro-EU leaflet sent out by the government to all households, at an expense of £9.3 million to taxpayers? Where was the balance and impartiality in that?

And for those of you who don't beleve me: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pro-EU_le ... %20Ireland.
David Cameron's Government were overtly pro-remain. The only reason he called the referendum in the first place was political cowardice - he thought he'd win the referendum and quieten down his anti-EU opponents. Governments aren't supposed to be impartial - they're political beasts.

The main thing to notice in the Wikipedia article you've linked to is that the contents of the Government leaflet were fact-checked and the 15 claims found to be accurate. This is in sharp contrast to the Brexit misinformation. I don't need to point towards the dodgy double decker bus claims here - I've got personal experience:

I briefly worked with the European Commission on the development of a new Product Directive, which would allow harmonised standards for a particular type of equipment to be sold round Europe. Basically, this meant I was working with some extremely enthusiastic British manufacturers who wanted a standard that would allow them to sell their products from Portugal to Poland, without the local authorities stepping in and saying it didn't comply with their national standards. (This stuff involves very, very dull bureaucratic and technical detail, but is extraordinarily important to manufacturers - once they know their products have a huge market, they can invest heavily accordingly.) When the Directive we were working with made it to the UK Press, it was painted as 'Brussels red tape' - shackling our plucky British businesses. This was a bare-faced lie, and these large British firms were screaming loudly about it, as all the employer/manufacturer/trade groups have been throughout Brexit.

However, the lesson here is: simple lies beat complicated truths. Nobody wants to listen to me droning on about manufacturing and product standards, but Joe Public loves a good story about Brussels Bureaucrats Banning Bendy Bananas, regardless of whether it's true.
That's how the oligarchs who dominate our mass media ran rings around the remain campaign, and the murky world of social media was far worse. If you're trying to argue using the facts these days, you've already lost before you started.

If you doubt anything that I've just said, then I've got a challenge for you: now we're in the sunlit uplands of Brexit, can you name one bit of red tape that's been removed that has made your life in any way better?
Jon in Sweden
Posts: 739
Joined: 22 May 2022, 12:53pm

Re: Are you "Infected by a remainer mind virus"?

Post by Jon in Sweden »

DevonDamo wrote: 4 May 2023, 2:53pm
853 wrote: 4 May 2023, 1:43pmAnd what about the Pro-EU leaflet sent out by the government to all households, at an expense of £9.3 million to taxpayers? Where was the balance and impartiality in that?

And for those of you who don't beleve me: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pro-EU_le ... %20Ireland.
David Cameron's Government were overtly pro-remain. The only reason he called the referendum in the first place was political cowardice - he thought he'd win the referendum and quieten down his anti-EU opponents. Governments aren't supposed to be impartial - they're political beasts.

The main thing to notice in the Wikipedia article you've linked to is that the contents of the Government leaflet were fact-checked and the 15 claims found to be accurate. This is in sharp contrast to the Brexit misinformation. I don't need to point towards the dodgy double decker bus claims here - I've got personal experience:

I briefly worked with the European Commission on the development of a new Product Directive, which would allow harmonised standards for a particular type of equipment to be sold round Europe. Basically, this meant I was working with some extremely enthusiastic British manufacturers who wanted a standard that would allow them to sell their products from Portugal to Poland, without the local authorities stepping in and saying it didn't comply with their national standards. (This stuff involves very, very dull bureaucratic and technical detail, but is extraordinarily important to manufacturers - once they know their products have a huge market, they can invest heavily accordingly.) When the Directive we were working with made it to the UK Press, it was painted as 'Brussels red tape' - shackling our plucky British businesses. This was a bare-faced lie, and these large British firms were screaming loudly about it, as all the employer/manufacturer/trade groups have been throughout Brexit.

However, the lesson here is: simple lies beat complicated truths. Nobody wants to listen to me droning on about manufacturing and product standards, but Joe Public loves a good story about Brussels Bureaucrats Banning Bendy Bananas, regardless of whether it's true.
That's how the oligarchs who dominate our mass media ran rings around the remain campaign, and the murky world of social media was far worse. If you're trying to argue using the facts these days, you've already lost before you started.

If you doubt anything that I've just said, then I've got a challenge for you: now we're in the sunlit uplands of Brexit, can you name one bit of red tape that's been removed that has made your life in any way better?
Excellent post. Thank you for sharing.

A friend back in the UK runs a company that imports, installs and maintains biomass boilers, principally from Austria. They are only a small company (about 30 employees) and had to take on a full time member of staff simply to deal with the red tape that Brexit has caused.

Britain has a long and illustrious history of manufacture, but the decline that's been the trend since WW2 has now greatly accelerated as investment goes into larger markets such as the EU.

We live in a quiet and low population area of Sweden, and within 45 minutes of us there are numerous large manufacturing businesses. The centre of Volvo heavy machinery manufacture is at Braås, there is a large Ikea factory at Hultsfred, Nordan windows are produced near Kvillsfors. These are large businesses with a global market, but so much of what they do is within the EU. A Union that Britain ejected itself from and is now suffering the consequences of.
Jdsk
Posts: 28115
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Are you "Infected by a remainer mind virus"?

Post by Jdsk »

DevonDamo wrote: 4 May 2023, 2:53pm ...
I briefly worked with the European Commission on the development of a new Product Directive, which would allow harmonised standards for a particular type of equipment to be sold round Europe. Basically, this meant I was working with some extremely enthusiastic British manufacturers who wanted a standard that would allow them to sell their products from Portugal to Poland, without the local authorities stepping in and saying it didn't comply with their national standards. (This stuff involves very, very dull bureaucratic and technical detail, but is extraordinarily important to manufacturers - once they know their products have a huge market, they can invest heavily accordingly.) When the Directive we were working with made it to the UK Press, it was painted as 'Brussels red tape' - shackling our plucky British businesses. This was a bare-faced lie, and these large British firms were screaming loudly about it, as all the employer/manufacturer/trade groups have been throughout Brexit.
...
DevonDamo wrote: 4 May 2023, 2:53pm ...
If you doubt anything that I've just said, then I've got a challenge for you: now we're in the sunlit uplands of Brexit, can you name one bit of red tape that's been removed that has made your life in any way better?
And this phase isn't over yet. The government is currently legislating to purify UK laws from all trace of EU influence. At the discretion of Ministers rather than our elected representatives.

It's a disaster for UK manufacturers who want to export, and as expected, it's going to be even worse for small producers. As Jon says.

And it makes it very difficult to "get on" with anything.

Whatever happened in the past we can now make the future better or worse than it would otherwise be...

Jonathan
Jdsk
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Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Are you "Infected by a remainer mind virus"?

Post by Jdsk »

Updated evidence for the damaging effects on manufacturing, including the greater effects on smaller businesses:

"Brexit, trade and UK advanced manufacturing sectors: a Midlands’ perspective":
https://ukandeu.ac.uk/brexit-trade-and- ... rspective/
https://ukandeu.ac.uk/working-paper/bre ... rspective/

Jonathan
Psamathe
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Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Are you "Infected by a remainer mind virus"?

Post by Psamathe »

I'll just respond to 2 of the many points you raise to avoid the "forensic multi-quotes" some here complain about.
Carlton green wrote: 4 May 2023, 2:26pm ...
Brexit is a poisonous issue and best held at arm’s length....
But it still needs to be sorted as we are suffering bad impacts so we need these reduced asap.
Carlton green wrote: 4 May 2023, 2:26pm ... but better so by a cross party group led by prominent and experienced leavers who would be answerable to the whole of Westminster on a free vote basis.
...
I regard Parliament and my MP as answerable to me (and all the other constituents) not answerable to itself.

Ian
roubaixtuesday
Posts: 6941
Joined: 18 Aug 2015, 7:05pm

Re: Are you "Infected by a remainer mind virus"?

Post by roubaixtuesday »

Carlton green wrote: 4 May 2023, 2:26pm
I remember the leaflet and the partisan nature of the government in the run up to the vote; I thought, and still do, that that was no way for a government to behave and that they should have been scrupulously impartial which, to my recollection, they were not. Foolishly, IMHO, the Labour Party struggled to be impartial too and that was almost certainly a contributing factor to later electoral defeats.

Brexit is a poisonous issue and best held at arm’s length. The whole situation would have worked much better had the politicians allowed free (Westminster) voting along the lines of conscience and the feelings of electorate rather than on political dogma. Yes, a leave vote would still have had to have been implemented but better so by a cross party group led by prominent and experienced leavers who would be answerable to the whole of Westminster on a free vote basis.

Politicians … Teresa May had something less extreme than Boris but she fell out of power when a free vote (with Labour support) would have seen both her proposals go forward and BoJo not elected.
The idea that government or political parties should be "impartial" to destructive policies seems more than a little odd. What's the point of a party if not to support policies that it agrees with?

As to political dogma, Brexit *is* exactly that - an idea based in ideology and entirely free of practical considerations.
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853
Posts: 462
Joined: 23 Sep 2022, 6:01pm

Re: Are you "Infected by a remainer mind virus"?

Post by 853 »

roubaixtuesday wrote: 4 May 2023, 2:08pm
Remembering that the original telegraph article is blaming a "mind virus" for the failure of Brexit.
You should actually read the article, as aside from the title it doesn't say anything of the sort.
Nearholmer
Posts: 6332
Joined: 26 Mar 2022, 7:13am

Re: Are you "Infected by a remainer mind virus"?

Post by Nearholmer »

I read it, and it is the pathetic whinge of a Brexit-Fan who now seeks to accuse people who voted ‘remain’ of holding the country back.

In a strange way, it reminded me of a “The World will End and God will Save the Righteous on Thursday 27th October 1956” cult, as it would be on the 28th October 1956, when the world is continuing in its usual way. The crazy-eyed erstwhile charismatic leader is trying to spin together some story to explain why people should still look to him for guidance, pointing to anything and everything to distract from the fact that the original premise was flawed.
Jdsk
Posts: 28115
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Are you "Infected by a remainer mind virus"?

Post by Jdsk »

I read it, and it doesn't tell the truth about the "early vaccine success".

Jonathan
roubaixtuesday
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Joined: 18 Aug 2015, 7:05pm

Re: Are you "Infected by a remainer mind virus"?

Post by roubaixtuesday »

853 wrote: 4 May 2023, 5:40pm
roubaixtuesday wrote: 4 May 2023, 2:08pm
Remembering that the original telegraph article is blaming a "mind virus" for the failure of Brexit.
You should actually read the article, as aside from the title it doesn't say anything of the sort.
The article notes that things have got worse since Brexit, and that an "institutional mind virus" is to blame.
roubaixtuesday
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Joined: 18 Aug 2015, 7:05pm

Re: Are you "Infected by a remainer mind virus"?

Post by roubaixtuesday »

Jdsk wrote: 4 May 2023, 6:28pm I read it, and it doesn't tell the truth about the "early vaccine success".

Jonathan
A poster child for If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. that particular whopper.
pwa
Posts: 18428
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Are you "Infected by a remainer mind virus"?

Post by pwa »

The article is, I expect, just a piece of opinionated commentry by an individual who has to produce opinions on a regular basis to make a living. You get the same sort of thing in all the papers. I never read these opinion pieces. I didn't read this one either. The OP did dive into this Telegraph piece, for some reason, but I'm not going to clutter my mind with this stuff. If you read things like this you set yourself up to be wound up. You become a participant in the game the author is playing. Inventing a new angle on a topic, hoping for a reaction.
tim-b
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Joined: 10 Oct 2009, 8:20am

Re: Are you "Infected by a remainer mind virus"?

Post by tim-b »

f you doubt anything that I've just said, then I've got a challenge for you: now we're in the sunlit uplands of Brexit, can you name one bit of red tape that's been removed that has made your life in any way better?
That's nothing to do with Brexit, more a reflection of the poor quality of UK politicians of every party

If you take the example of the invasion of Ukraine there are many examples of EU paralysis. Brexit has nothing to do with this either because the UK would have been free to make its own efforts to help Ukraine as it already has.
A couple of examples:
"First, we did not believe that the war was coming. I have to recognise that here, in Brussels, the Americans were telling us “They will attack, they will attack”, and we were quite reluctant to believe it." (Josep Borrell doesn't recognise that the UK amongst others was also telling Brussels this)
"I think that we have to think more politically. I think that we need to be more proactive, more reactive. We have to make a link between all these problems. We still operate in silos - I can tell you."
https://www.eeas.europa.eu/eeas/eu-amba ... borrell_en
One year later...
"BRUSSELS, April 6 2023 (Reuters) - A European Union plan to send 1 million artillery shells to Ukraine is being held up as member states argue over how far spending for the plan will stay within the EU, diplomats and officials said on Thursday."

The EU is massively flawed. Brexit was massively flawed. Politicians are massively flawed. Discuss...
~~~~¯\(ツ)/¯~~~~
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Audax67
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Re: Are you "Infected by a remainer mind virus"?

Post by Audax67 »

All it boils down to is that people are people and everyone's scared shitless of Putin.
Have we got time for another cuppa?
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