Illegal to carry a bike lock & arrestable offence if locking your bike up impedes others

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Sum
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Re: Illegal to carry a bike lock & arrestable offence if locking your bike up impedes others

Post by Sum »

Yes, as you've already said no one is going to get arrested 'just' for having a bike lock on them. Or indeed whilst sensibly locking your bike when going to the shops. The incident in the news article has some shocking details, but you're conflating it with other things outside the protest context, which is again misleading.
cycle tramp
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Re: Illegal to carry a bike lock & arrestable offence if locking your bike up impedes others

Post by cycle tramp »

Flipping the whole thing on its head, given the number of people who were taken by the police and later released, did any of them have a bicycle lock on, or near them...

...given the sheer numbers of people who may have a cycle lock with them, perhaps cycling around London ..or not...at the time of the Coronation of the latest media sacrifice.. did anyone get arrested for just having a bicycle lock?
It's time to go :-)
Psamathe
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Re: Illegal to carry a bike lock & arrestable offence if locking your bike up impedes others

Post by Psamathe »

cycle tramp wrote: 11 May 2023, 5:22pm Flipping the whole thing on its head, given the number of people who were taken by the police and later released, did any of them have a bicycle lock on, or near them...

...given the sheer numbers of people who may have a cycle lock with them, perhaps cycling around London ..or not...at the time of the Coronation of the latest media sacrifice.. did anyone get arrested for just having a bicycle lock?
No idea but 64 arrests with so many present I don't think the question relevant.

What is relevant is how the law is written and how the Police often seem to interpret widely for their convenience (even if subsequently things are "found against them").

Ian
Stevek76
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Re: Illegal to carry a bike lock & arrestable offence if locking your bike up impedes others

Post by Stevek76 »

Sum wrote: 11 May 2023, 4:12pm Yes, as you've already said no one is going to get arrested 'just' for having a bike lock on them. Or indeed whilst sensibly locking your bike when going to the shops. The incident in the news article has some shocking details, but you're conflating it with other things outside the protest context, which is again misleading.
As I've also already said, from the perspective of the person it could easily be perceived as such and that's what matters when using such phrasing. Indeed this incident has actually moved my opinion supporting use of this 'hyperbole' as it is now evident it is entirely possible.

This lady had no idea who JSO even were*, simply in the wrong place at the wrong time, exactly as any cyclist with a lock could be.

*Not that the arrests of the JSO supporters/members was in any way justified either. (Particular irony here of course in that Charles is fully aware of the implications of climate change and absolutely supports their cause even if he's no longer allowed to say such publicly)
The contents of this post, unless otherwise stated, are opinions of the author and may actually be complete codswallop
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Sum
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Re: Illegal to carry a bike lock & arrestable offence if locking your bike up impedes others

Post by Sum »

No, what matters to me is understanding what can happen to me, the choice of phrasing doesn't matter to me at all (well except for the hyperbole :) .

For example, I now know from the latest example you've usefully provided, that if I attend a gathering and inadvertently stand next to protestors then I'm at risk of unwittingly getting caught up in the protest and getting arrested. It doesn't matter if I was protesting or not, or knew the protestors, what matters will be if the police go in heavy handed, and confuse me as being a protestor. I'd still get arrested sadly. I also understand that I'm at risk of getting arrested as a suspected protestor regardless if I'm a cyclist or have a bike lock. None of the examples you gave involved being a cyclist or bike locks, but they did involve gatherings and protestors and the police having broad powers to deal with protestors. These appear to be the key issues here, at least from what's been evidenced.

However, outside of a protest context, nothing you've said leads me to think I will be charged with the offence of 'locking on' or being 'being equipped for locking on' e.g. when I'm locking my bike up in the stands outside the local supermarket going about the normal business of shopping.
pete75
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Re: Illegal to carry a bike lock & arrestable offence if locking your bike up impedes others

Post by pete75 »

If this can happen then it's quite possible someone will be arrested for having their bicycle lock on them.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... t-stop-oil

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/royals ... sters.html
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
Pebble
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Re: Illegal to carry a bike lock & arrestable offence if locking your bike up impedes others

Post by Pebble »

I would guess if you have both a bicycle and bicycle lock with you at the same time the police will understand. Difficulties will arise when you are at or near a potential target for pinko subversives with a bicycle lock, a copy of the guardian and no bicycle. The police can work these things out, ello ello ello, whats going on ere then?
pete75
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Re: Illegal to carry a bike lock & arrestable offence if locking your bike up impedes others

Post by pete75 »

Pebble wrote: 12 May 2023, 10:02am I would guess if you have both a bicycle and bicycle lock with you at the same time the police will understand. Difficulties will arise when you are at or near a potential target for pinko subversives with a bicycle lock, a copy of the guardian and no bicycle. The police can work these things out, ello ello ello, whats going on ere then?
Yes but a lot of the people you describe as "pinko subversives" ride bicycles.
Mind you, a lot of subversives are likely to come from your side of the political spectrum
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-64399335
https://rusi.org/explore-our-research/p ... ould-we-be
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
Pebble
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Re: Illegal to carry a bike lock & arrestable offence if locking your bike up impedes others

Post by Pebble »

pete75 wrote: 12 May 2023, 10:23am
Pebble wrote: 12 May 2023, 10:02am I would guess if you have both a bicycle and bicycle lock with you at the same time the police will understand. Difficulties will arise when you are at or near a potential target for pinko subversives with a bicycle lock, a copy of the guardian and no bicycle. The police can work these things out, ello ello ello, whats going on ere then?
Yes but a lot of the people you describe as "pinko subversives" ride bicycles.
Mind you, a lot of subversives are likely to come from your side of the political spectrum
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-64399335
https://rusi.org/explore-our-research/p ... ould-we-be
I don't have a side, perfectly balanced on top of that political fence, a lonely place at times.
Psamathe
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Re: Illegal to carry a bike lock & arrestable offence if locking your bike up impedes others

Post by Psamathe »

pete75 wrote: 12 May 2023, 9:29am If this can happen then it's quite possible someone will be arrested for having their bicycle lock on them.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... t-stop-oil

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/royals ... sters.html
I saw that report (and the victim being interviewed) on TV last night and found it very worrying on many levels.

Using the legislation to arrest completely innocent bystander.
The victim now has an arrest on her record impacting CRB (or whatever it's called) checks, visas for travel to many foreign countries, etc.

Her complaint seems to have just been "dismissed" by the two forces resonsible. Met passed it to Lincoln 'cos the arreting officer was from Lincoln Force who seem to have just dismissed it. But as victim pointed out, it was the Met who held her for 13 hours.

Plus, whilst I'm an increasingly staunch republican, the victim decided to spend her time watching a "once in a lifetime" (we are told) event for a system she supports and the Police turned it into a nightmare with lifelong impacts for her.

I'm also disappointed at how the Met have on occasions justified their behaviour on the basis that the party went smoothly - but if you round-up anybody who can spell "Republic" guess is it a surprise it "goes smoothly".

Ian
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Sum
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Re: Illegal to carry a bike lock & arrestable offence if locking your bike up impedes others

Post by Sum »

Those news articles that pete75 has linked to refer to the same scenario that Stevek76 linked to previously i.e. Alice Chambers' arrest for unwittingly standing next to protesters during the coronation. Whilst what happened to Chambers was shocking, it doesn't answer the question in the OP regarding whether the Public Order Act 2023 could be used outside of the context of a protest. The OP later gave a more specific example of "... maybe a local shopping centre landowners security are not happy where you have locked your bike, and call the police to get you arrested".

In that scenario I would hope considerately locking your bike somewhere would avoid the issue in the first place, or if offense was given somehow, you could de-escalate the situation by moving the bike elsewhere. I wouldn't expect in those circumstances to be accused of being a protestor and carted off under Public Order Act 2023.
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mjr
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Re: Illegal to carry a bike lock & arrestable offence if locking your bike up impedes others

Post by mjr »

Sum wrote: 12 May 2023, 10:55am In that scenario I would hope considerately locking your bike somewhere would avoid the issue in the first place, or if offense was given somehow, you could de-escalate the situation by moving the bike elsewhere. I wouldn't expect in those circumstances to be accused of being a protestor and carted off under Public Order Act 2023.
Does anyone really feel that it is good to have a badly-written over-broad rushed-through law, just because you don't expect the police to use it as written? And how can you reasonably expect that when police have already used that law in what they call "regrettable" ways to arrest people?

It's a bad law. Repeal and try again.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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atoz
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Re: Illegal to carry a bike lock & arrestable offence if locking your bike up impedes others

Post by atoz »

I carry a reasonable small selection of tools, as most experienced cyclists do. Would that be enough to get arrested?

Also, my favoured full size frame fit pump (yes I still have these- better if you have a flat in the middle of nowhere) is the venerable old school Zefal HPX. These are made of alloy apart from the hard plastic bit at the end to keep the pump in position at the bottom bracket. So potentially it could conceivably be frowned upon? Who knows?

What a time we live in..
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mjr
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Re: Illegal to carry a bike lock & arrestable offence if locking your bike up impedes others

Post by mjr »

atoz wrote: 12 May 2023, 1:04pm I carry a reasonable small selection of tools, as most experienced cyclists do. Would that be enough to get arrested?
Possibly. It depends what the tools are. My folding gardening tools for removing overgrowth from cycleways would almost certainly be enough to get arrested, if the police wanted to. That's part of why I try to remember to remove them from my bag before riding in London (where, to be fair, there is less overgrowth to cut).
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Biospace
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Re: Illegal to carry a bike lock & arrestable offence if locking your bike up impedes others

Post by Biospace »

mjr wrote: 12 May 2023, 12:05pm
It's a bad law. Repeal and try again.
Yes, it is a bad law.

Monbiot says this, "These are the state-of-emergency laws you would expect in the aftermath of a coup .... We are being compelled by law to accept the destruction of the living world."

I agree with both his points, although I'd suggest the destruction of the living world could yet be as much that of the steady removals of the right to free expression and free speech as AGW.
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