Illegal to carry a bike lock & arrestable offence if locking your bike up impedes others

thirdcrank
Posts: 36764
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Illegal to carry a bike lock & arrestable offence if locking your bike up impedes others

Post by thirdcrank »

Jdsk wrote: 13 May 2023, 12:00pm
Who waited?

Thanks

Jonathan
Who on this forum did anything about this when it was still going through Parliament?

What did you do?
Jdsk
Posts: 24478
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Illegal to carry a bike lock & arrestable offence if locking your bike up impedes others

Post by Jdsk »

thirdcrank wrote: 13 May 2023, 11:58am Read the Act itself - linked above - and it has this near the start:-
Be it enacted by the King’s most Excellent Majesty, by and with the advice and consent of the Lords Spiritual and Temporal, and Commons, in this present Parliament assembled, and by the authority of the same, as follows:—
Perhaps the people to lobby were the "Commons" when it was in its earlier stages. As noted right at the beginning of this thread, there were those drawing attention to potential faults in the law so it's not been smuggled in under cover of darkness.

Waiting till it's been enacted then blaming the police for its enactment seems a bit rich to me.
thirdcrank wrote: 13 May 2023, 12:10pm
Jdsk wrote: 13 May 2023, 12:00pm Who waited?
Who on this forum did anything about this when it was still going through Parliament?
I suggest reading this thread:

"Braverman: Rise of the Fascists":
viewtopic.php?p=1734666&hilit=law+protest#p1734666

The removal of rights and the risks of these changes were clearly identified before the Act became law. People discussed it. They're now discussing it. There wasn't any "waiting".

Jonathan
Psamathe
Posts: 17616
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Illegal to carry a bike lock & arrestable offence if locking your bike up impedes others

Post by Psamathe »

thirdcrank wrote: 13 May 2023, 12:10pm
Jdsk wrote: 13 May 2023, 12:00pm
Who waited?

Thanks

Jonathan
Who on this forum did anything about this when it was still going through Parliament?

What did you do?
Maybe this highlights a failing of our political system, not that many don't do anything but many can't do anything. I write to my MP periodically and am totally ignored - he regards his role (in a "Safe Conservative Seat") as to vote as Party dictate.

I've even written on issues where I have expertise and several qualifications (listing many post-nominals) - totally ignored.

I am not allowed to write to other MPs (outside my constituency) or at least if I do they'll just say I need to write to my own MP. Although we don't get to vote for PM, we've not yet had a General Election where we get to vote with result putting Sunak or Starmer in PM. Only election we have had has shown electorate is not happy with Conservatives and their reaction is to double down on their ideology, continuing what they were doing before the disasterous election.

Ian
Jdsk
Posts: 24478
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Illegal to carry a bike lock & arrestable offence if locking your bike up impedes others

Post by Jdsk »

Psamathe wrote: 13 May 2023, 11:33am ...
I agree that "mistakes will happen" but the Police need to be aware that 'mistakes will happen" and part of the (pre?) arrest procedures should be to quickly identify the mistakes and rectify them i.e. not hold a "mistake" for 13 hours and hope the "mistake" does not raise a complaint.
...
I hope that the length of detention will be considered if there's ever any review. At the moment it looks far too long.

Jonathan
Jdsk
Posts: 24478
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Illegal to carry a bike lock & arrestable offence if locking your bike up impedes others

Post by Jdsk »

Psamathe wrote: 13 May 2023, 12:26pm
thirdcrank wrote: 13 May 2023, 12:10pm
Jdsk wrote: 13 May 2023, 12:00pm Who waited?
Who on this forum did anything about this when it was still going through Parliament?

What did you do?
Maybe this highlights a failing of our political system, not that many don't do anything but many can't do anything. I write to my MP periodically and am totally ignored - he regards his role (in a "Safe Conservative Seat") as to vote as Party dictate.

I've even written on issues where I have expertise and several qualifications (listing many post-nominals) - totally ignored.

I am not allowed to write to other MPs (outside my constituency) or at least if I do they'll just say I need to write to my own MP. Although we don't get to vote for PM, we've not yet had a General Election where we get to vote with result putting Sunak or Starmer in PM. Only election we have had has shown electorate is not happy with Conservatives and their reaction is to double down on their ideology, continuing what they were doing before the disasterous election.
Other things that we can do are support organisations that try to protect rights, and donate to the legal defence of those whose rights are infringed.

Jonathan
Jdsk
Posts: 24478
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Illegal to carry a bike lock & arrestable offence if locking your bike up impedes others

Post by Jdsk »

mjr wrote: 12 May 2023, 12:05pm
Sum wrote: 12 May 2023, 10:55am In that scenario I would hope considerately locking your bike somewhere would avoid the issue in the first place, or if offense was given somehow, you could de-escalate the situation by moving the bike elsewhere. I wouldn't expect in those circumstances to be accused of being a protestor and carted off under Public Order Act 2023.
Does anyone really feel that it is good to have a badly-written over-broad rushed-through law, just because you don't expect the police to use it as written? And how can you reasonably expect that when police have already used that law in what they call "regrettable" ways to arrest people?

It's a bad law. Repeal and try again.
Exactly. And legislating but assuming that the laws won't be used is an excellent example of the triumph of hope over experience.

And an illustration of why there should be enforceable protection of rights as a principle that is independent of specific legislation.

Jonathan
thirdcrank
Posts: 36764
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Illegal to carry a bike lock & arrestable offence if locking your bike up impedes others

Post by thirdcrank »

Jdsk wrote: 13 May 2023, 12:22pm
thirdcrank wrote: 13 May 2023, 12:10pm
Jdsk wrote: 13 May 2023, 12:00pm Who waited?
Who on this forum did anything about this when it was still going through Parliament?
I suggest reading this thread:

"Braverman: Rise of the Fascists":
viewtopic.php?p=1734666&hilit=law+protest#p1734666

The removal of rights and the risks of these changes were clearly identified before the Act became law. People discussed it. They're now discussing it. There wasn't any "waiting".

Jonathan
To save me from re-reading that thread, perhaps you might link to any discussion of forum members lobbying their own MPs to prevent this being enacted, or to have it enacted in a different form.
=================================================
PS I see that Psamathe has now responded saying they are ignored by their own MP. (Not that they wrote and were ignored on this issue)
Jdsk
Posts: 24478
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Illegal to carry a bike lock & arrestable offence if locking your bike up impedes others

Post by Jdsk »

thirdcrank wrote: 13 May 2023, 12:37pm...
To save me from re-reading that thread, perhaps you might link to any discussion of forum members lobbying their own MPs to prevent this being enacted, or to have it enacted in a different form.
...
You accused people of waiting before the the enactment before doing anything. You've now shifted to criticism of what people did or didn't do, although neither you nor I know what other people did.

It might be a good idea to read that thread: the problems with this legislation were known and discussed. It's repressive. It's already been used to repress protest. People have been detained who shouldn't have been detained.

Jonathan
Psamathe
Posts: 17616
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Illegal to carry a bike lock & arrestable offence if locking your bike up impedes others

Post by Psamathe »

Jdsk wrote: 13 May 2023, 12:28pm
Psamathe wrote: 13 May 2023, 12:26pm
thirdcrank wrote: 13 May 2023, 12:10pm
Who on this forum did anything about this when it was still going through Parliament?

What did you do?
Maybe this highlights a failing of our political system, not that many don't do anything but many can't do anything. I write to my MP periodically and am totally ignored - he regards his role (in a "Safe Conservative Seat") as to vote as Party dictate.

I've even written on issues where I have expertise and several qualifications (listing many post-nominals) - totally ignored.

I am not allowed to write to other MPs (outside my constituency) or at least if I do they'll just say I need to write to my own MP. Although we don't get to vote for PM, we've not yet had a General Election where we get to vote with result putting Sunak or Starmer in PM. Only election we have had has shown electorate is not happy with Conservatives and their reaction is to double down on their ideology, continuing what they were doing before the disasterous election.
Other things that we can do are support organisations that try to protect rights, and donate to the legal defence of those whose rights are infringed.

Jonathan
We can but people have limited means (particularly with levels of inflation we are currently experiencing) as well as different priorities for sectors they can make donations to. In my case it's wildlife and conservation charities.

Ian
cycle tramp
Posts: 3479
Joined: 5 Aug 2009, 7:22pm

Re: Illegal to carry a bike lock & arrestable offence if locking your bike up impedes others

Post by cycle tramp »

thirdcrank wrote: 13 May 2023, 12:10pm
Jdsk wrote: 13 May 2023, 12:00pm
Who waited?

Thanks

Jonathan
Who on this forum did anything about this when it was still going through Parliament?

What did you do?
So turning the clocks back to 1992 (or perhaps it was 1994) Michael Howard's criminal justice act found its way onto the statue books... back then I was still protesting..

So, what am I going to do now we have another public order bill?

...be grateful of all the things that have happened between then and now..
Back then global warming wasn't even believed and the science was openly derided, the department of transport wouldn't accept any change in transport policy to include bicycles, saying that it was too dangerous to do so, and recycling only happened on a very small scale, if at all... so much has changed, despite the then clamp down on our rights to protest..
Even back then I had my doubts as to how effect protesting really was, and now in this age of multi media, my doubts have grown.. I think I can reach, communicate, explain and show much more to more people using the Internet then I ever could holding a banner..
Right now there are so many ways to protest, including buying shares in the companies you are protesting about and tabling amendments to halt or limit their actions..

..I know that the Public Order Bill concerns a large number of people, and to be fair who wouldn't be concerned.. but it is a small detail of a much larger conflict which is being enacted... that of the state's (or if you're a Pink Floyd fan, the Machine's) attempts to turn us into worker consumers with controlled thoughts and managed aspirations, versus the continued attempts by artists and free thinkers to resist and create following their own minds (....like the Zenga Bros. or Dan Price from the Moonlight Chronicles) simply because there is nothing more threatening to a government than those whose minds they cannot control (either by reward or fear).

As an anarchist, I believe we will never be free of the threat to our freedom until we give up our national need to appoint other people to do our thinking for us..
However our second best hope isn't to simply seek to repel this bill and all other similar bills, but to establish once and for all, our rights as to what we can do, and to enshrine them in law.
Last edited by cycle tramp on 13 May 2023, 11:11pm, edited 5 times in total.
It's time to go :-)
cycle tramp
Posts: 3479
Joined: 5 Aug 2009, 7:22pm

Re: Illegal to carry a bike lock & arrestable offence if locking your bike up impedes others

Post by cycle tramp »

..until that time, let us continue to live as we still do, to see the new act as irrelevant and to encourage others, especially the police, to also see it as irrelevant.

Personally I will still be riding bicycles cobbled together out of the working bits of broken cycles, I will still be growing my own food, buying locally sourced goods, I will still be drawing and creating art projects for my own amusement and I will be encouraging everyone to do the same...

..how far have we come?
Global warming has been accepted, cycles are (theorically) part of the transport solution, theres more organic food on the shelves, the council is doing its upmost to recycle more and more things, words I used to only read in books like biodiversity and sustainability are now common place, my neighbour has just fitted solar panels on their roof..

These changes came about, not because I protested for them, but because they had to, there was no way they could not come about.. despite Michael Howard nor all the home secretaries since then..

The last public order bill will not stop society from progressing, it only serves to prove that those in power have grown ever more paranoid.
It's time to go :-)
pete75
Posts: 16356
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Illegal to carry a bike lock & arrestable offence if locking your bike up impedes others

Post by pete75 »

thirdcrank wrote: 13 May 2023, 12:10pm
Jdsk wrote: 13 May 2023, 12:00pm
Who waited?

Thanks

Jonathan
Who on this forum did anything about this when it was still going through Parliament?

What did you do?
If the House of Lords couldn't stop it, what can any of us do?
We get a cross on a bit of paper every five years or so. Once elected our masters in Westminster pass laws to make us do what they want us to do and laws to stop us from doing things they don't want us to do. They use our money to finance their police force to impose their will,by force if needs be.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
pete75
Posts: 16356
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Illegal to carry a bike lock & arrestable offence if locking your bike up impedes others

Post by pete75 »

cycle tramp wrote: 13 May 2023, 10:50pm

So turning the clocks back to 1992 (or perhaps it was 1994) Michael Howard's criminal justice act found its way onto the statue books... back then I was still protesting..

So, what am I going to do now we have another public order bill?

...be grateful of all the things that have happened between then and now..
Back then global warming wasn't even believed and the science was openly derided, the department of transport wouldn't accept any
Not by all back then. Surprisingly, Mrs Thatcher in a 1989 speech to the UN said

“What we are now doing to the world, by degrading the land surfaces, by polluting the waters and by adding greenhouse gases to the air at an unprecedented rate — all this is new in the experience of the Earth,” she told the general assembly. “It is mankind and his activities which are changing the environment of our planet in damaging and dangerous ways.”
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
User avatar
mjr
Posts: 20297
Joined: 20 Jun 2011, 7:06pm
Location: Norfolk or Somerset, mostly
Contact:

Re: Illegal to carry a bike lock & arrestable offence if locking your bike up impedes others

Post by mjr »

pete75 wrote: 14 May 2023, 12:22pm Not by all back then. Surprisingly, Mrs Thatcher in a 1989 speech to the UN said

“What we are now doing to the world, by degrading the land surfaces, by polluting the waters and by adding greenhouse gases to the air at an unprecedented rate — all this is new in the experience of the Earth,” she told the general assembly. “It is mankind and his activities which are changing the environment of our planet in damaging and dangerous ways.”
Only surprising if you don't remember the actual Thatcher instead of the perverted myth idolised by the new Tories. For all her faults, she was a scientist, not a public relations spinner or a PPE (the subject not the products) aristo-wannabe.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.
Post Reply