Shoot dogs, help me?

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Jdsk
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Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Shoot dogs, help me?

Post by Jdsk »

Tangled Metal wrote: 26 May 2023, 3:27pm ...
BTW I've looked at the complaints system within the NHS against doctors. It's a real mess for the layperson imho. So many routes for making complaints. Certainly an opportunity to streamline it to a wholly independent, one stop shop for complaints, investigation and tribunal.
A whole new statutory body covering all of England as the first point of contact for all complaints? That stands no chance of surviving contact with the real world. The vast majority of complaints can and should be handled locally and as informally as possible.

And a lot quicker and better than at present.

Jonathan
Psamathe
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Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Shoot dogs, help me?

Post by Psamathe »

Tangled Metal wrote: 26 May 2023, 3:00pm
Psamathe wrote: 26 May 2023, 9:57am
Tangled Metal wrote: 25 May 2023, 4:26pm The CCTV was earlier, they broke off some time before the crash and went in a different direction. That was shown on. ....
That does not change the fact that the police started telling us all lies (that they were not involved before the riots. They were "found out" by the private CCTV and (after a few days of bad PR because of it) "changed their story".
Tangled Metal wrote: 25 May 2023, 4:26pm ...
Police aren't the only occupation where bad apples are serious. There's a case going through the courts now of an alleged bad apple nurse. These people are human like everyone else and yes I too think these people should be the best of us not the average or worst. However humans mess up and do all sorts of stupid things to mitigate their mistakes. Plus they do absolute wrong.

However I suppose it's likely to be the want of people on this forum to be more critical of the police considering the political leanings of the political thread participants.
That is just "whataboutism". It changes nothing in relation to trust of Police.

A few years ago I'd have trusted Police story and be reacting like you are. But last few years as how the Police operate is emerging I've gradually lost all trust in them.

Ian
Might be whataboutism but it was in response to your police exceptionalism comment. If police must be better than us then so must doctors, nurses, etc. Personally I don't have that naive view that it's even possible. Humans are flawed so we need the means to hold all to account no matter what your job.
...
My comments and views expressed are in relation to how I've lost trust in the Police. Other professions requiring responsibility is a separate issue and separate discussion none of which impacts how I trust the Police.

My concern is how ready they seem to lie to cover what has happened, that does not change how I feel about the responsibility Doctors, nurses, dentists, airline pilots, etc. have.

So when I say your doing "Whataboutery" it is relevant because discussing Police failings does not suggest anything about other professions. My loss of trust in the Police is because of repeated failing over time that I can no longer accept the "Bad Apple" justification and whilst I recognise other professions also have "Bad Apples" the numbers reported seem low that they really are just occasional "Bad Apples" rather than a "culture".

Ian
mattheus
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Re: Shoot dogs, help me?

Post by mattheus »

Carlton green wrote: 26 May 2023, 1:39pm I always think that Hillsborough tells one all one needs to know about police honesty and willingness to admit errors.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... h-cover-up
That was over 30 years ago. How many people involved would also be part of the Cardiff incident?

It is absurd to tar this entire professsion with the same brush.

The Moderators removed my post showing how absurd this is, so apparently they also think this sort of bigotry is fine, but it isn't.

There is no evidence of wrongdoing (yet) by the police, but there is plenty that the teenagers brought their own deaths on themselves. Also that their parents turned a blind eye - over some period of time - to their illegal behaviour.
What would you be saying if the bikers had caused serious injury e.g. to a frail old person walking their dog, while they hooned around?

You really are on a raaather sticky wicket, blaming the police for this and presuming their guilt on all fronts!
Jdsk
Posts: 24486
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Shoot dogs, help me?

Post by Jdsk »

mattheus wrote: 26 May 2023, 4:06pm ...
There is no evidence of wrongdoing (yet) by the police, but there is plenty that the teenagers brought their own deaths on themselves.
...
What's known about how they died?

Thanks

Jonathan
mattheus
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Joined: 29 Dec 2008, 12:57pm
Location: Western Europe

Re: Shoot dogs, help me?

Post by mattheus »

Jdsk wrote: 26 May 2023, 4:09pm
mattheus wrote: 26 May 2023, 4:06pm ...
There is no evidence of wrongdoing (yet) by the police, but there is plenty that the teenagers brought their own deaths on themselves.
...
What's known about how they died?

Thanks

Jonathan
It was in Cardiff.
Jdsk
Posts: 24486
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Shoot dogs, help me?

Post by Jdsk »

I don't know know if that's intended to be humorous.

You've said that there's plenty of evidence that they brought their deaths on themselves. What is that evidence, please?

Thanks

Jonathan
mattheus
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Joined: 29 Dec 2008, 12:57pm
Location: Western Europe

Re: Shoot dogs, help me?

Post by mattheus »

Jdsk wrote: 26 May 2023, 4:13pm I don't know know if that's intended to be humorous.
It's a statement of fact. You like facts, right?
(I pointed out a few others upthread too, HTH)

Now, do you have a useful contribution to the debate? I've made a contribution; your turn!
Psamathe
Posts: 17617
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Shoot dogs, help me?

Post by Psamathe »

mattheus wrote: 26 May 2023, 4:06pm
Carlton green wrote: 26 May 2023, 1:39pm I always think that Hillsborough tells one all one needs to know about police honesty and willingness to admit errors.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... h-cover-up
That was over 30 years ago. How many people involved would also be part of the Cardiff incident?

It is absurd to tar this entire professsion with the same brush.

The Moderators removed my post showing how absurd this is, so apparently they also think this sort of bigotry is fine, but it isn't.

There is no evidence of wrongdoing (yet) by the police, but there is plenty that the teenagers brought their own deaths on themselves. Also that their parents turned a blind eye - over some period of time - to their illegal behaviour.
What would you be saying if the bikers had caused serious injury e.g. to a frail old person walking their dog, while they hooned around?

You really are on a raaather sticky wicket, blaming the police for this and presuming their guilt on all fronts!
There are two issues here 1 the deaths of the two teenagers and 2 the Police lying to the public about their involvement.

Personally I know nothing of the teenagers, their backgrounds, what caused the Police to pursue so make no comment on that aspect (because I don't have the information to make a judgement). I feel it is important not to conflate the two issues to make it seem that one justifies the other.

But it seems well established that the Police did lie about their involvement and for me that is an important aspect as it seems a recurring pattern of behaviour.

Ian
Psamathe
Posts: 17617
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Shoot dogs, help me?

Post by Psamathe »

mattheus wrote: 26 May 2023, 4:11pm
Jdsk wrote: 26 May 2023, 4:09pm
mattheus wrote: 26 May 2023, 4:06pm ...
There is no evidence of wrongdoing (yet) by the police, but there is plenty that the teenagers brought their own deaths on themselves.
...
What's known about how they died?

Thanks

Jonathan
It was in Cardiff.
I don't see how events taking place in Cardiff shows "that the teenagers brought their own deaths on themselves". I've scanned back through the thread and can't see anything (maybe I missed it? but you said
mattheus wrote: 26 May 2023, 4:47pm ...
It's a statement of fact. You like facts, right?
(I pointed out a few others upthread too, HTH)
...
so any chance you could point me to your post providing evidence as to "the teenagers brought their own deaths on themselves"?

Ian
Carlton green
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Re: Shoot dogs, help me?

Post by Carlton green »

mattheus wrote: 26 May 2023, 4:06pm
Carlton green wrote: 26 May 2023, 1:39pm I always think that Hillsborough tells one all one needs to know about police honesty and willingness to admit errors.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... h-cover-up
That was over 30 years ago. How many people involved would also be part of the Cardiff incident?
Why would that be relevant to the repeatedly proven fact that police forces have people within them who behave well below the professional standards required and that their actions are covered up by a closing of ranks. This attitude to failures in professional standards was illustrated by the Hillsborough incident.
mattheus wrote: 26 May 2023, 4:06pm It is absurd to tar this entire professsion with the same brush.
And if you look at my posts more closely you’ll see that I haven’t done so, I can only think that you have misunderstood something.
mattheus wrote: 26 May 2023, 4:06pm The Moderators removed my post showing how absurd this is, so apparently they also think this sort of bigotry is fine, but it isn't.
I didn’t report your other post and they removed my tolerant response too. What you wrote doesn’t reflect the better person that I believe you to be and IMHO it’s better erased.
mattheus wrote: 26 May 2023, 4:06pm There is no evidence of wrongdoing (yet) by the police, but there is plenty that the teenagers brought their own deaths on themselves. Also that their parents turned a blind eye - over some period of time - to their illegal behaviour.
There certainly does appears to be evidence of police involvement with some pursuit before the accident and the issue here is that such involvement was initially denied. The actions of the teenagers and their parents is a separate issue to the one under discussion - no doubt a handy diversion but not central to this thread (which is much more about about poor quality policing).
mattheus wrote: 26 May 2023, 4:06pm What would you be saying if the bikers had caused serious injury e.g. to a frail old person walking their dog, while they hooned around?
I’d say that’s an interesting topic for its own separate thread.
mattheus wrote: 26 May 2023, 4:06pm You really are on a raaather sticky wicket, blaming the police for this and presuming their guilt on all fronts!
Please point me to where I’ve clearly said that the police were responsible for the deaths. The only thing that I presume then guilty of is lying, there is some evidence for that and historically there’s a culture of police officers - and forces - not always telling the truth - of which I have given examples in earlier posts.

Perhaps you are a serving or ex-constable? In social circumstances and over many decades I’ve met serving and ex-constables and pretty much each of them would say that their forces contained a significant percentage of brash and gung-ho types. On the odd occasions were I’ve needed to deal with the police I found them to be quite mixed, some professional - for whom I am thankful - and some who you would wonder how they managed to be allowed to don a police officers uniform. As they say YMMV.
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
ossie
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Joined: 15 Apr 2011, 7:52pm

Re: Shoot dogs, help me?

Post by ossie »

This is my opinion some of its is factual and down to personal experience.

When you engage in a 'pursuit' you firstly need to be trained to pursue vehicles which involves an intense 4 week course. Some Police officers are trained but not all , no PCSO's are trained. To engage in a pursuit you put on your blue lights, sirens and immediately inform the control room who create a computer log . The incident is then controlled by a senior officer (Inspector) who takes into account the circumstances based on the information they've been given and also checks the driver is qualified to pursue.. The control room inspector has the power to call off the pursuit immediately and I'd suggest in the lack of any other info this would be called off straight away unless they'd robbed Tesco express or knifed someone.

So this was a short follow, with no lights, not reported by the driver.

It's glaringly obvious that the 79 year old Police crime commissioner (yep you read it here) had no idea the van had engaged in a short follow when he was so keen to speak on behalf of South Wales Police that evening, indeed when the media team repeated it they had no idea either. This was simply based on no control room log and the GPS findings of the police vehicles in the area.

So they weren't lying , they had no idea.

However they really shouldn't have said anything until the investigation had a least started but now you have the tail wagging the dog. An elected civilian desperate to prove his worth and justify his post feeding off a civilian media team . He was probably desperate to quell a riot as well.

In relation to the police van. It will come out in the wash if the driver was untrained or a PCSO (civilian) and why they didn't contact the control room or report the incident to their supervisor when the road deaths became obvious. That would have immediately gone onto the log with a direct referral to the IOPC, the duty Superintendent and South Wales Police would have communicated appropriately.

The resulting actions on the estate were complete thuggery. We're entering a summer of possible discontent so I'd expect the Ely delinquents to get the book thrown at them and deservedly so.

However I can also imagine this scenario ' Residents complain patrolling police van did absolutely nothing to stop two kids riding around the estate and eventually killing themselves ' So incensed at the Police inaction (cos they pay their wages) residents rioted.
pete75
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Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Shoot dogs, help me?

Post by pete75 »

ossie wrote: 25 May 2023, 10:10pm
pete75 wrote: 25 May 2023, 2:08am
tenbikes wrote: 24 May 2023, 9:56pm They shoot to kill because a wounded person is likely to be very pissed off with whoever has shot them!
Hmmm well my aquaintance from Lithuania didn't seem to encounter any problems by shooting to disable. It's more likely they shoot to kill becaus ethey know they can get away with it, so care little about doing it.

They shoot to eliminate the threat, not to kill. The ammunition used is often fatal as they don't want Mrs Miggins at her kitchen sink half a mile away getting slotted by a round that went straight through the target. If you look at a body you have a large body mass in the middle with two legs and a couple of arms hanging off it. Hitting the mass is much easier and more effective than aiming for an arm with a 5 inch diameter.

The police in Lithuania will have a very similar policy and training as here, Germany, France, Spain [removed by moderator]
The bullets they use are hollow point, commonly called dum-dum. They've been banned on the battlefield by the Hargue convention since about 1898. Soldiers are not allowed to fire them at each other , yet the police are allowed to fire them at us.
Hmm all I know about police training in Lithuania is from a former Lithuaninan police officer. What's your source?
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
ossie
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Re: Shoot dogs, help me?

Post by ossie »

pete75 wrote: 27 May 2023, 12:17am
The bullets they use are hollow point, commonly called dum-dum. They've been banned on the battlefield by the Hargue convention since about 1898. Soldiers are not allowed to fire them at each other , yet the police are allowed to fire them at us.
Hmm all I know about police training in Lithuania is from a former Lithuaninan police officer. What's your source?
Hollow point is used as I said to stop the round ending up half a mile away and injuring, killing other people in the process. It's the round that kills not the policy. Germany , Sweden and Poland use them amongst others.

Most fireams training is pretty standard where they shoot at the central body mass or torso. At your request here's a link to Lithuania running an international firearms instructors course . In the link is a video showing firearms officers in multiple scenarios aiming at a torso shaped target, no arms, no legs, a torso.

https://lpm.policija.lrv.lt/en/news/int ... nstructors
Carlton green
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Re: Shoot dogs, help me?

Post by Carlton green »

ossie wrote: 26 May 2023, 11:01pm This is my opinion some of its is factual and down to personal experience.

When you engage in a 'pursuit' you firstly need to be trained to pursue vehicles which involves an intense 4 week course. Some Police officers are trained but not all , no PCSO's are trained. To engage in a pursuit you put on your blue lights, sirens and immediately inform the control room who create a computer log . The incident is then controlled by a senior officer (Inspector) who takes into account the circumstances based on the information they've been given and also checks the driver is qualified to pursue.. The control room inspector has the power to call off the pursuit immediately and I'd suggest in the lack of any other info this would be called off straight away unless they'd robbed Tesco express or knifed someone.

So this was a short follow, with no lights, not reported by the driver.

It's glaringly obvious that the 79 year old Police crime commissioner (yep you read it here) had no idea the van had engaged in a short follow when he was so keen to speak on behalf of South Wales Police that evening, indeed when the media team repeated it they had no idea either. This was simply based on no control room log and the GPS findings of the police vehicles in the area.

So they weren't lying , they had no idea.

However they really shouldn't have said anything until the investigation had a least started but now you have the tail wagging the dog. An elected civilian desperate to prove his worth and justify his post feeding off a civilian media team . He was probably desperate to quell a riot as well.

In relation to the police van. It will come out in the wash if the driver was untrained or a PCSO (civilian) and why they didn't contact the control room or report the incident to their supervisor when the road deaths became obvious. That would have immediately gone onto the log with a direct referral to the IOPC, the duty Superintendent and South Wales Police would have communicated appropriately.

The resulting actions on the estate were complete thuggery. We're entering a summer of possible discontent so I'd expect the Ely delinquents to get the book thrown at them and deservedly so.

However I can also imagine this scenario ' Residents complain patrolling police van did absolutely nothing to stop two kids riding around the estate and eventually killing themselves ' So incensed at the Police inaction (cos they pay their wages) residents rioted.
Thanks, I thought that a constructive response.
So they weren't lying , they had no idea.

If that were the case then it reflects really badly on that force and so in a variety of ways.

Of course, and here’s the issue, police forces up and down the land have had instances of very lacking professional behaviour that has been covered up or ignored by senior officers. Against that backdrop folk will automatically decide that ‘cock-up’ is conspiracy. To many people the terms ‘pursuit’ and ‘follow’ are near enough interchangeable so whilst there is a technical difference in policing terms what’s important, in communication to other people, is using terms that have the same meaning to people outside of the profession.

Doubtless the folk in Ely are a mixed bunch, having mixed with similar there will be some ‘ass-holes’ and others who are the complete opposite. Of ‘ass-holes’ I’ve met many over the years and some of them are professional folk with substantial assets and they live in very nice neighbourhoods.

Whatever, the thread is about police action and accountability. Let’s all be glad of the Force but let’s also remember that there are real issues about failures in Police conduct. The thread started with actions by the Met, the video clips that I saw of them showed thugs in uniform and it amazed me that the Met have reviewed video evidence and cleared themselves of unprofessional action.
The resulting actions on the estate were complete thuggery. We're entering a summer of possible discontent so I'd expect the Ely delinquents to get the book thrown at them and deservedly so.
That does make me wonder what’s for the best and accountability for actions. Someone living in Ely might say that the place was a tinderbox and that the police threw a match into it. I’d say that the whole issue has layers of complexity; perhaps I’m getting old and soft - I prefer to think better educated through the ‘school of life’ - but throwing the book at people is a form of social suppression rather than social correction.
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
ossie
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Joined: 15 Apr 2011, 7:52pm

Re: Shoot dogs, help me?

Post by ossie »

Carlton green wrote: 27 May 2023, 7:53am
That does make me wonder what’s for the best and accountability for actions. Someone living in Ely might say that the place was a tinderbox and that the police threw a match into it. I’d say that the whole issue has layers of complexity; perhaps I’m getting old and soft - I prefer to think better educated through the ‘school of life’ - but throwing the book at people is a form of social suppression rather than social correction.
Oh I agree it's suppression however riots can be spontaneous, almost copycat. We can all remember the 2011 riots that started over the death of Mark Duggan. There were social complexities in Tottenham that led to the riot but the same complexities weren't present in other towns where it kicked off.

The subsequent sentences handed out were very harsh and designed as a national deterrent, which worked. We now have a new generation.

My thoughts on throwing the book at them were simply based on the current political and cost of living crisis where this could turn into a countrywide issue, especially if we have a hot summer. If it's a one off (and I agree we do get one off localised public order situations) then yes correction may be suitable. Most of the residents of Ely will feel extremely vulnerable now so without doubt a multi agency approach will kick in to try and repair things.
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