Not heard of this word before...

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Jdsk
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Re: Not heard of this word before...

Post by Jdsk »

There's a lot that needs to be improved in scientific publishing.

But the principles of scientific method are the best currently available defence against either people or machines telling us things that aren't true.

Jonathan

PS: "Explaining the 'how' - the launch of BBC Verify"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-65650822
Stevek76
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Re: Not heard of this word before...

Post by Stevek76 »

re_cycler wrote: 25 May 2023, 11:44am Microsoft Bing Chat gives the following answer.

"A "Jolly cut" is a bevel cut that is made on tiles or slabs. It is named after James Jolley, 1813-1892, saddler, harness maker and politician ². The Perfect Jolly is a new accessory from Battipav that enters the range to solve the dilemma of the Jolly cuts in the construction site. It is fully adjustable both in depth and angle and is composed of a rigid base that slides on the tile by means of polyethylene pads ¹."


As usual with an answer from an LLM it sounds credible but may not be correct :D
The further answer is that Jolley created a mountain access road in Hamilton which was know as the Jolley Cut. Maybe the road required a bevelled cut :roll:
Well it did give you its main sources to follow. Bings new AI chat search (which AIUI is largely a variant of chatgptv4 - microsoft bought out OpenAI recently) is best thought of as a easier to use search system. I've been using it a fair bit as if you're after more obscure things it seems much easier to get the chat function to exclude the topic(s) that swamps the results of a conventional search (because those results are, objectively, the 'best' results for that set of search terms). Far easier to go through 2 or 3 prompts with the chat and just tell it you weren't after that than try and work out what advanced search query will do that job.
The contents of this post, unless otherwise stated, are opinions of the author and may actually be complete codswallop
Stevek76
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Re: Not heard of this word before...

Post by Stevek76 »

As for the topic. Perhaps a more popular term in german as it does feature on the german language page:
https://www.einhell.de/p/4301180-tc-tc-618/

and 'Jollyschnitt' has its own german wiki entry: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jollyschnitt

So may be somewhat of a translation thing here where a more common native term is literally translated into something that is technically correct but perhaps better replaced by alternative words.
The contents of this post, unless otherwise stated, are opinions of the author and may actually be complete codswallop
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simonineaston
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Re: Not heard of this word before...

Post by simonineaston »

Again, at the risk of repeating myself, the problem is the uncertainty. Even today, we're unsure of the veracity of the definition of a relatively unimportant and infrequently used technical word. It's no biggie. Or is it??
Imagine a world, a decade hence, in which we simply don't know whether we're being told the truth or not, on a day to day basis...
Today, we can be reasonably confident that our papers contain a kernel of truth - court cases are underway all the time to enforce that belief. We can be reasonably certain that the research described in this week's Lancet was carried out by a real scientist. And reviewed by human peers. We can be reasonably certain that the news from Reuters about Kyiv is factual.
But once AI starts to leach out into areas where we think it's OK - the stuff that doesn't seem to matter so much, like kids exams and song lyrics and film plots for example, then it all gets a bit blurry. And it won't be long before AI feeds into stuff some people think doesn't matter and other folk do. Etc.
Bingo! We've got a world where everything we "know" comes from a hive of computers - and you can rest assured, dear reader, that 'intelligence' won't necessarily have our best interests at heart. In fact, the ruddy things haven't got a heart at all !!
S
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
Jdsk
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Re: Not heard of this word before...

Post by Jdsk »

simonineaston wrote: 26 May 2023, 10:11am Again, at the risk of repeating myself, the problem is the uncertainty. Even today, we're unsure of the veracity of the definition of a relatively unimportant and infrequently used technical word. It's no biggie. Or is it??
...
I don't think that's what was revealed here. Open discussion rapidly revealed what the term means. (And I learnt something, thanks. ) I think that we have established that we don't know the derivation. Stating what we don't know is very very important.

Jonathan
Jdsk
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Re: Not heard of this word before...

Post by Jdsk »

simonineaston wrote: 26 May 2023, 10:11am ...
Imagine a world, a decade hence, in which we simply don't know whether we're being told the truth or not, on a day to day basis...
...
But that's been the case for as long as we know. Look at the history of supernaturalism. Look at the history of medicine. Look at the data for how little trust there is in journalists and politicians. Look at what happens in totalitarian regimes.

This is not a new problem.

Jonathan
mattheus
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Re: Not heard of this word before...

Post by mattheus »

Jdsk wrote: 26 May 2023, 10:18am
This is not a new problem.
Your evidence?




:P
Jdsk
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Re: Not heard of this word before...

Post by Jdsk »

mattheus wrote: 26 May 2023, 10:27am
Jdsk wrote: 26 May 2023, 10:18am This is not a new problem.
Your evidence?
Jdsk wrote: 26 May 2023, 10:18am Look at the history of supernaturalism. Look at the history of medicine. Look at the data for how little trust there is in journalists and politicians. Look at what happens in totalitarian regimes.
Jonathan
Biospace
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Re: Not heard of this word before...

Post by Biospace »

simonineaston wrote: 26 May 2023, 10:11am We can be reasonably certain that the research described in this week's Lancet was carried out by a real scientist. And reviewed by human peers. We can be reasonably certain that the news from Reuters about Kyiv is factual.

But once AI starts to leach out into areas where we think it's OK - the stuff that doesn't seem to matter so much, like kids exams and song lyrics and film plots for example, then it all gets a bit blurry. And it won't be long before AI feeds into stuff some people think doesn't matter and other folk do. Etc.

Bingo! We've got a world where everything we "know" comes from a hive of computers - and you can rest assured, dear reader, that 'intelligence' won't necessarily have our best interests at heart. In fact, the ruddy things haven't got a heart at all !!

Finding what is factual, truthful and relevant so we have a balanced understanding of the world around us has very likely never been easy. The volume of uncontrolled information available to people today is concerning governments just as it did after printing presses proliferated, although it's only after a couple of decades of millions of Brits using the internet that 'BBC Verify' has appeared. Similarly, it's only in the last three or so years that I've noticed the rise of 'fact-checkers' in the legacy media.

The 'reasonable certainty' you suggest we have in scientists is fair comment, although there is concern within the scientific community itself that there is the risk of being controlled by Big Money, not so much that academic studies are tweaked to suit a narrative, more that money is not available for that which rich and powerful concerns do not wish to have studied.

Similarly with the news media, I wouldn't expect Reuters to start putting out factually incorrect stories as they would soon lose trust (and so lose value) but perhaps it's what is not reported which can skew people's perception and understanding most effectively?

From people I speak around where we live, 'AI' is trusted as little as a prominent politician is - but that's a rural community where a good proportion of people deal with Nature as a living and have a natural scepticism of 'official' narratives, of men in suits, of the interests of very large business.


On a different topic, I'd always considered a 'jolly cut' to be a bevelled edge, but don't know its etymology.
harriedgary
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Re: Not heard of this word before...

Post by harriedgary »

the whole edifice of scientific peer review is crumbling. and it's patently due to the gross commercial interference rife in the system now. Yet another example of the far reaching consequences of privatising by stealth the education system as then researchers have to cap in hand to businesses for all the grants, whereas once upon a time, various government departments controlled grants in different sectors, for instance, you'd have research into building materials overseen by the government building research establishment. And water boards which back then were public researched water stuff. etc etc.
Now governments have privaties so much, and the consequences are often tragic because private means profit means motive means criminal negligence. Grenfell wouldn't have happened if building materials were still been tested by a public organisation. But allowing private labs to pat each other on the wallet, allowed the wrong material to be used in the wrong way, and 72 people sadly died because of that corruption.
Bored with earth, where is the mother ship please?
axel_knutt
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Re: Not heard of this word before...

Post by axel_knutt »

Jolly cut:
It's not in the OED.

AI:
I think simonineaston has it about right, a future in which people reject everything including the truth is just as dystopian as one in which they accept everything. The Brexit referendum and Trump election showed us what to expect. AIUI, research into lie detection has shown that people all like to think they're good at it, but in fact are no better than 50-50 chance (even police interrogators).

As regards regulation, the genie's out of the bottle now, I don't suppose Putin much cared whether or not fake videos were illegal in Ukraine when he made the one of Zelensky surrendering. The internet has industrialised the scale of illegal activity, if we can't stamp out child porn, police trading standards on Amazon, or prevent the epidemic of financial fraud, how is anyone going to keep a lid on something like AI that can run 1000s of times faster? AI is just a new weapon.
“I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you.”
― Friedrich Nietzsche
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