Ely riot, 2023

[PM999]

The majority of current press articles are referring to "e bike". The suggestion is a pedelec.

In an article I read earlier, the bike was described as a "Sur Ron". The only bikes that Sur Ron supply are e motorcycles.

[PM999]

Yes it's the Mail, but read the article and look at the picture of the youths on the bike:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... esent.html

They are on an e motorcycle, not a pedelec.

[PM999]

And from the Grauniad:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... rce-admits

Bridy Bool, a close friend of the family of one of the boys who was killed, said they still had little information about what happened to the teenagers. “They don’t know what happened,” she said. “They’re in pieces.”

She said Kyrees Sullivan and Harvey Evans were best friends. “They loved football and motorbikes. They did everything together,” she said.

Bool said the pair had been on a Sur-Ron electric motorcycle together and had not been wearing helmets. She claimed the families were upset that the boys’ bodies had been left on the road for several hours while the riot took place.

[Biospace]

Perhaps if there was a little more investment in activity facilities for young people tragedies like the recent one in South Wales would be reduced as well as other anti-social behaviour,

Spot on, and not just activities for young people, vital and near-absent as they are (I used to be on the committee that ran a youth club, which eventually died of financial starvation), but other investments in the futures of people of all ages in “deprived areas”.

In too many places it’s the age old story of people robbed of hope, who then disengage from the society that has waved two fingers at them, and are then stigmatised as “the problem”. This country appears incapable of learning the lesson that if people have realistic hopes of some sort of modest success in life, they engage in society positively, and there isn’t “a problem”, despite multiple countries having proved that to be true.

IMO, one of the problems with/for the police is that they are charged with keeping the lid on the pot, while the pressure is turned-up by economic hardship, at least some of which is created by “upward redistribution”, and the number of coppers reduces. That inevitably creates an “us and them” situation in which the police turn into an embattled, cynical, misanthropic bunch (exactly what I heard when I worked closely with police officers), some of whom then feel it’s perfectly acceptable to engage in toxic subcultures of their own.

As a society we too often ignore that life on this planet enjoys having fun, taking some risks, stretching abilities. Especially young males. Unless you're from a privileged background or have excessive amounts of spare cash, there isn't much provision for excess energy and fun-seeking so it's hardly surprising this happens on roads and in other public spaces.

In the Mail article linked above, it's noted that these boys were well known for riding about on such machines and there is a wider problem with many other youths doing the same. They're having fun, have parents who haven't found an alternative for them and have doubtless warned them multiple times to 'be careful'.

Parents are prepared to spend thousands on these machines and presumably value their children's lives, so why don't local authorities and parents get together to work out how some of what they might otherwise spend on an even faster machine be spent on organising locations and events which channel the fun into something safer, more productive, more exciting and perhaps even improve knowledge and ability?

[Stevek76]

With the speed they were going on the cctv the device was, without question, a motorbike, regardless of whether it was 'full' electric motorbike, or a dodgy 'chipped' or plain out of regulation thing with pedals attached. I'm not a fan of the latter being referred to as e-bikes as it conflates with legal electric assist bicycles.

so why don't local authorities and parents get together to work out how some of what they might otherwise spend on an even faster machine be spent on organising locations

13 years of Tory austerity means few councils have the spare resources for such things. A big reason behind rising crime rates is that we've gone 'soft on the causes of crime'. Obviously a few of the parents in the area might have some spare cash (or just don't care about being loaded with debt) but most will not either.

[mattheus]

There is no way I'd spend £4k on a kids present before checking the legal situation.
Absurd to suggest the law is unclear, thus excusing the parents and the (tragically deceased) teenagers.

[mattheus]

A useful post from the other thread:

This is my opinion some of its is factual and down to personal experience.

When you engage in a 'pursuit' you firstly need to be trained to pursue vehicles which involves an intense 4 week course. Some Police officers are trained but not all , no PCSO's are trained. To engage in a pursuit you put on your blue lights, sirens and immediately inform the control room who create a computer log . The incident is then controlled by a senior officer (Inspector) who takes into account the circumstances based on the information they've been given and also checks the driver is qualified to pursue.. The control room inspector has the power to call off the pursuit immediately and I'd suggest in the lack of any other info this would be called off straight away unless they'd robbed Tesco express or knifed someone.

So this was a short follow, with no lights, not reported by the driver.

It's glaringly obvious that the 79 year old Police crime commissioner (yep you read it here) had no idea the van had engaged in a short follow when he was so keen to speak on behalf of South Wales Police that evening, indeed when the media team repeated it they had no idea either. This was simply based on no control room log and the GPS findings of the police vehicles in the area.

So they weren't lying , they had no idea.

However they really shouldn't have said anything until the investigation had a least started but now you have the tail wagging the dog. An elected civilian desperate to prove his worth and justify his post feeding off a civilian media team . He was probably desperate to quell a riot as well.

In relation to the police van. It will come out in the wash if the driver was untrained or a PCSO (civilian) and why they didn't contact the control room or report the incident to their supervisor when the road deaths became obvious. That would have immediately gone onto the log with a direct referral to the IOPC, the duty Superintendent and South Wales Police would have communicated appropriately.

The resulting actions on the estate were complete thuggery. We're entering a summer of possible discontent so I'd expect the Ely delinquents to get the book thrown at them and deservedly so.

However I can also imagine this scenario ' Residents complain patrolling police van did absolutely nothing to stop two kids riding around the estate and eventually killing themselves ' So incensed at the Police inaction (cos they pay their wages) residents rioted.

[mattheus]

Please could people say what they think the boys were riding, and the source.

Thanks

Jonathan

Good post Jon.

Now we've had that one answered, can I please ask for source/quote of the alleged lie told by the police (on the night of the tragedy)?

[Psamathe]

...
As a society we too often ignore that life on this planet enjoys having fun, taking some risks, stretching abilities. Especially young males. Unless you're from a privileged background or have excessive amounts of spare cash, there isn't much provision for excess energy and fun-seeking so it's hardly surprising this happens on roads and in other public spaces. ...

I agree and when I was young I took some absurd risks - but those I remember, had they gone badly I and I alone would be the one who suffered the impacts.

People might chose to take risks in relation to themselves but I think it is morally wrong to take such risks where the outcome could be disastrous for others who have not chosen to take those risks, who get none of the "fun", etc.

I accept society needs to find a way for youngsters to have fun. I have a suspicion that maybe our litigious society (tending towards US) makes such provision so much harder. Council setup an off-road dirt track and land and construction might not cost much but Safety Officer (present 24/7), hourly safety inspections, insurance cover, risk analysis, continuous monitoring, etc. creates a cost burden and when an accident does happen site closed, parents blame Council, etc. And accidents will happen though maybe less frequently than those same youngsters messing around on the roads?

Ian

[Psamathe]

Please could people say what they think the boys were riding, and the source.

Thanks

Jonathan

Good post Jon.

Now we've had that one answered, can I please ask for source/quote of the alleged lie told by the police (on the night of the tragedy)?

See the other thread where sources were provided.

Ian

[mattheus]

Please could people say what they think the boys were riding, and the source.

Thanks

Jonathan

Good post Jon.

Now we've had that one answered, can I please ask for source/quote of the alleged lie told by the police (on the night of the tragedy)?

See the other thread where sources were provided.

Ian

... but not what the actual lie was.

What was the actual alleged lie please?

[Psamathe]

Good post Jon.

Now we've had that one answered, can I please ask for source/quote of the alleged lie told by the police (on the night of the tragedy)?

See the other thread where sources were provided.

Ian

... but not what the actual lie was.

What was the actual alleged lie please?

I'm actually getting pretty sick of Googling on your behalf. If you don't understand Google go on a course or something.

Cardiff riots: Killed teenagers not chased - police commissioner
Two teenagers whose deaths led to riots in Cardiff, were not being chased by police when they were killed in a bike crash, a police commissioner insists.
...
On Tuesday, Mr Michael said: "It would appear that there were rumours, and those rumours became rife, of a police chase - which wasn't the case."

The lie was It would appear that there were rumours, and those rumours became rife, of a police chase - which wasn't the case.

You've already had sources given. Next time do your own Googling (it really isn't that difficult).

Ian

[Nearholmer]

Where does “being followed” become “being chased”?

How vital are the words “when they were killed” in the sentence, given that it appears that the police van had to divert from following the boys because they went down a road that has bollards across it?

I’m wondering whether the police didn’t actually lie, but were very economical with the truth.

[Jdsk]

Where does “being followed” become “being chased”?
...

The wording will come under scrutiny for two different reasons: the adherence to good practice at the time and the public statements that were later made by the authorities.

Jonathan

[Psamathe]

Where does “being followed” become “being chased”?

How vital are the words “when they were killed” in the sentence, given that it appears that the police van had to divert from following the boys because they went down a road that has bollards across it?

I’m wondering whether the police didn’t actually lie, but were very economical with the truth.

To me "I am following the car in front" and being "followed by the car behind" none of which implies I'm trying to apprehend them nor to be apprehended by them. I am being "chased" when the vehicle following is wanting to apprehend me rather than being the vehicle behind me. Being "chased" does not require the chasing vehicle to be on the same roads at the same time.

I doubt many people believe that the Police van just happened to be going along the same road at the same time as the teenagers.

Ian