Ely riot, 2023

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Nearholmer
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Re: Ely riot, 2023

Post by Nearholmer »

Perhaps it's time we had a proper conversation about e-bikes and about loosening the regulations
Again, we’re drifting into territory which is effectively a call to liberalise moped regulations, by permitting them to be used without insurance, registration, or compulsory helmets.

If that’s what people want, fine, let them say so, and campaign for it openly. But, don’t mix it up by calling what is being sought an e-bike, when the well-understood term for it is ‘moped’.

My gut feel is that if the things in question, the things that some people want liberality around, still made a loud rasping sound and left a trail of blue smoke, we’d be having a different conversation. We might even recall why and how the law became as it is, after a shocking number of youngsters killed themselves riding overly powerful ones in the 1970s.

As an aside, it does seem odd to be calling for liberalisation when the incident in question does, at least on the face of it, allowing that the face may not be the whole story, look like the very sort of thing the current laws are there to prevent: young lads suffering a tragic end because of their natural love of speed and inability to properly understand risks when in charge of a relatively powerful machine.

As a footnote: it is possible to simultaneously lack faith in the honesty and competence of a high percentage of police officers, and believe that the e-bike and moped regulations are not far wrong as they stand now, and to wonder what is going through the minds of adults who buy youngsters fairly powerful machines to ride, and to be sceptical about claims that liberalising moped laws would get people out of cars to any significant degree.
Biospace
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Re: Ely riot, 2023

Post by Biospace »

Nearholmer wrote: 27 May 2023, 6:27pm Again, we’re drifting into territory which is effectively a call to liberalise moped regulations, by permitting them to be used without insurance, registration, or compulsory helmets.
I thought there was a call from some to increase the maximum ebike speed from 25kph to 30kph, quite distinct from moped speeds and their regulations.

The French have long recognised the need for young people to move around independently, with 14yo children permitted to use mopeds (as do six other European nations) and microcars if limited to 28mph, I'm not aware of but recently the laws on e-scooters was changed, https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/2 ... e-scooters

The proliferation of people using unregistered, uninsured higher powered battery bikes to carry out crime is clearly a problem for police. In 2021 HMG asked for the public's ideas on how this could be tackled, https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... n-document

I'm not aware of any progress in this respect. Perhaps if there was a little more investment in activity facilities for young people tragedies like the recent one in South Wales would be reduced as well as other anti-social behaviour, but there would still be the criminal element taking advantage of this new form of transport.

Maybe more beat officers, including some on faster ebikes? https://ebiketips.road.cc/content/news/ ... bikes-2677
Last edited by Biospace on 27 May 2023, 7:42pm, edited 2 times in total.
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simonineaston
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Re: Ely riot, 2023

Post by simonineaston »

The proliferation of people using unregistered, uninsured higher powered battery bikes to carry out crime
Let's not ostracise the considerable number of folk using such vehicles to make a living, for example delivering food orders. Huge sub-industry here in Bristol and I imagine across lots of other cities. Border-line legal they may be, what with one thing and another, but they're not criminals.
S
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Biospace
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Re: Ely riot, 2023

Post by Biospace »

simonineaston wrote: 27 May 2023, 7:36pmLet's not ostracise the considerable number of folk using such vehicles to make a living, for example delivering food orders. Huge sub-industry here in Bristol and I imagine across lots of other cities. Border-line legal they may be, what with one thing and another, but they're not criminals.
I'd hope the police would be able to tell the difference between delivery riders and criminal activity. Someone mentioned there's a temptation for them to pursue the mostly lawful, since it's easier work, which is a very good point.
Nearholmer
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Re: Ely riot, 2023

Post by Nearholmer »

Perhaps if there was a little more investment in activity facilities for young people tragedies like the recent one in South Wales would be reduced as well as other anti-social behaviour,
Spot on, and not just activities for young people, vital and near-absent as they are (I used to be on the committee that ran a youth club, which eventually died of financial starvation), but other investments in the futures of people of all ages in “deprived areas”.

In too many places it’s the age old story of people robbed of hope, who then disengage from the society that has waved two fingers at them, and are then stigmatised as “the problem”. This country appears incapable of learning the lesson that if people have realistic hopes of some sort of modest success in life, they engage in society positively, and there isn’t “a problem”, despite multiple countries having proved that to be true.

IMO, one of the problems with/for the police is that they are charged with keeping the lid on the pot, while the pressure is turned-up by economic hardship, at least some of which is created by “upward redistribution”, and the number of coppers reduces. That inevitably creates an “us and them” situation in which the police turn into an embattled, cynical, misanthropic bunch (exactly what I heard when I worked closely with police officers), some of whom then feel it’s perfectly acceptable to engage in toxic subcultures of their own.
Nearholmer
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Re: Ely riot, 2023

Post by Nearholmer »

thought there was a call from some to increase the maximum ebike speed from 25kph to 30kph, quite distinct from moped speeds and their regulations.
The problem is that now mopeds are commonly electrically powered, “quite distinct” has effectively disappeared as a meaningful notion.

What we have are two-wheeled, electrically powered vehicles, and the capability to build them up to very high power outputs and any level of hybridisation (human + electric power combined). There is no hard line at a technical level, pushbike (human only) can elide into motorbike (no human input) by degrees far more easily than with petrol engines.

The only distinctions are legal ones, and how they should be set is fertile ground for endless debate, because there are so many competing factors at play. The factors that I’m suggesting we need to bear firmly in mind are the underdeveloped risk perceptions and thrill-seeking behaviours of youngsters, as discussed here: https://www.safedrivingforlife.info/blo ... g-drivers/

All made even more complicated because designers can make weedy machines look super-powerful, and super-powerful machines look weedy, so if any enforcement of legal distinctions is attempted (not that much is) it’s bound to involve cases of mistaken identity - riders of weedy machines being pulled-up, while riders of powerful ones slip quietly past the enforcer, then accelerate to warp speed just round the corner.

It’s really a bit of a separate subject from this thread, and it has threads of its own from what I recall.
francovendee
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Re: Ely riot, 2023

Post by francovendee »

Isn't the point being the police had seen two lads on a bike and doing this was against the law. I agree we've all done it but it wasn't on power assisted bikes. In my day we'd just stop, get off the bike and have a rollicking from the copper.
Rioting doesn't change the fact they died due to their own actions, not the Police.
Accepting the fact that the statement from the police was misleading.
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simonineaston
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Re: Ely riot, 2023

Post by simonineaston »

The role of the parents in all this is significant. Which is deeply sad, of course. Their simple action of making the vehicle available has had disasterous consequences. The position of the vehicle & its use by the youngsters on public roads in the grey area of illegality proved a dangerous and ultimately fatal cocktail. They must be distraught...
What puzzles me is that its the police who seem to have been cast as the irresponsible element.
S
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
Pebble
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Re: Ely riot, 2023

Post by Pebble »

simonineaston wrote: 28 May 2023, 8:52am The role of the parents in all this is significant. Which is deeply sad, of course. Their simple action of making the vehicle available has had disasterous consequences. The position of the vehicle & its use by the youngsters on public roads in the grey area of illegality proved a dangerous and ultimately fatal cocktail. They must be distraught...
What puzzles me is that its the police who seem to have been cast as the irresponsible element.
Is there a "Grey Area" For me it is a full on Motor Bike, They were under age, would not of had a licence, were not wearing crash helmets (a legal requirement on a motor bike), could not of had motor insurance.

I do see Surron sell these bikes with the heading "Road Legal", but surely this is a motor bike and requires a driving licence, insurance etc. ?
https://www.englishelectricmotorco.com/ ... oad-legal/
my van is 'road legal' but that does not mean anyone of any age can drive it anywhere.
reohn2
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Re: Ely riot, 2023

Post by reohn2 »

A couple of points I'd like to make:-
Power in the hands of the inexperienced can,all too often,end in disaster.
When that power is applied to a two wheeled vehicle it becomes even more dangerous.
Add to that the bravado and belief of immortality of youth and the chances of disaster increase manifold.
Add to that the fear of being caught by the police in a chase,as tgey see it and the chances of disaster rack up even higher.

Ultimately these two lads will never grow out of the foolishness of youth and that is the greatest tragedy
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squeaker
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Re: Ely riot, 2023

Post by squeaker »

Pebble wrote: 28 May 2023, 9:13am For me it is a full on Motor Bike, They were under age, would not of had a licence, were not wearing crash helmets (a legal requirement on a motor bike), could not of had motor insurance.
Quite! Most of the Surron product range is not road legal. (I don't know if the one involved was.) If you're a copper on duty and see a couple of young lads with no helmets squeezed onto an off-road bike what would you do?
"42"
Pebble
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Re: Ely riot, 2023

Post by Pebble »

squeaker wrote: 28 May 2023, 10:42am
Pebble wrote: 28 May 2023, 9:13am For me it is a full on Motor Bike, They were under age, would not of had a licence, were not wearing crash helmets (a legal requirement on a motor bike), could not of had motor insurance.
Quite! Most of the Surron product range is not road legal. (I don't know if the one involved was.) If you're a copper on duty and see a couple of young lads with no helmets squeezed onto an off-road bike what would you do?
hopefully they should be able to work out where they live and confiscate the bike when they are not using it. But it is a difficult one, if they do not know who they are, and the bike is being ridden recklessly then the police have a duty to protect other members of the public and stop the bike! Ultimately the courts and justice system should be establishing a greater deterrent. These high powered electric motor bikes are becoming a significant problem.

But back to my question before, where these bikes are given the status of 'road legal' (as per my earlier link). Am I missing something regarding the law, can they be ridden under the same relaxed rules as an eBike or bicycle? Even if they are restricted to 30mph I'm thinking it is still a Motor Bike and would be subject to licence, helmets insurance mot .....
PM999
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Re: Ely riot, 2023

Post by PM999 »

If ridden on the road, the road legal variants are classed as motorcycles and require the full Monty - appropriate licence, insurance, registration, VED (currently nil) & helmets while in use. The non road legal variants should not be on the road at all. IMHO, the police were absolutely correct to attempt to apprehend 2 youths riding one illegally on public roads. The ultimate outcome suggests whoever was at the controls had an excess of ambition over skill.

Back in the late 1990s, my mother in law, a fit lady in her seventies, was taking her afternoon constitutional in the local park. A 15 year old scrote on an illegally ridden (ICE powered) small scrambler bike careered round a corner and knocked her down. After 2 days, my wife, father in law and brother in law agreed to switch off life support. Dad in law spent the final 8 years of life in a fairly miserable state - mourning the loss of his wife, guilt at not being there for her at the time of the accident etc. The scrote got off scot - free and smiled as he left the court.

The e motorcycle these youths were riding is a modern day equivalent of the small scrambler in the event described above. In the hands of an unskilled, unlicenced, untrained, uninsured 15 or 16 year old, what could possibly go wrong?
Jdsk
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Re: Ely riot, 2023

Post by Jdsk »

Interview with the aunt of one of the boys:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-65734720

Jonathan
Jdsk
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Re: Ely riot, 2023

Post by Jdsk »

Please could people say what they think the boys were riding, and the source.

Thanks

Jonathan
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