Ely riot, 2023

[ossie]

The lie was It would appear that there were rumours, and those rumours became rife, of a police chase - which wasn't the case.

You've already had sources given. Next time do your own Googling (it really isn't that difficult).

Ian

I explained on the other thread that they didn't lie and it's in the post quoted up this thread. Clearly the Crime commissioner , control room and South Wales Police had no knowledge of the vans involvement when they made those statements, so its hardly lying.

[Jdsk]

...
Clearly the Crime commissioner , control room and South Wales Police had no knowledge of the vans involvement when they made those statements, so its hardly lying.

It isn't clear to me. I don't know who knew what when.

I expect that we will discover more about that from the IOPC investigation as it's covered explicitly in their statement.

Jonathan

[ossie]

...
Clearly the Crime commissioner , control room and South Wales Police had no knowledge of the vans involvement when they made those statements, so its hardly lying.

It isn't clear to me. I don't know who knew what when.

I expect that we will discover more about that from the IOPC investigation as it's covered explicitly in their statement.

Jonathan

It's not clear to you because you don't know the processes which is understandable. With any road death one of the first things that is ascertained is if there was any police involvement. If so this would be an immediate referral to the IOPC. The involvement could be absolutely minimal but it would be investigated.

I can only surmise the following. The issue that appears to have arisen is the crime commissioner, bless him, has taken it upon himself after consultation with the control room many miles away to try and quell a riot and via the media team started giving out the wrong information. The control room clearly had zero knowledge a van had followed these lads at this point.

Ordinarily, no such information would be divulged so quickly or without an investigation taking place.

There are two issues here for me. The van driver withheld the fact he was following these kids ( the control room would have flagged it and IOPC referral would have been immediate and the media dept made aware) plus the crime commissioner (79 year old ex labour politician) must have pulled rank to start making statements without full knowledge of what was happening.

[Jdsk]

...
Clearly the Crime commissioner , control room and South Wales Police had no knowledge of the vans involvement when they made those statements, so its hardly lying.

It isn't clear to me. I don't know who knew what when.

I expect that we will discover more about that from the IOPC investigation as it's covered explicitly in their statement.

It's not clear to you because you don't know the processes which is understandable. With any road death one of the first things that is ascertained is if there was any police involvement. If so this would be an immediate referral to the IOPC.

The issue that's arisen here is that the crime commissioner, bless him, has taken it upon himself after consultation with the control room many miles away to try and quell a riot. The control room clearly had zero knowledge a van had followed these lads.

Ordinarily, no such information would be divulged so quickly or without an investigation taking place.

There are two issues here for me. The van driver withheld the fact he was following these kids ( the control room would have flagged it and IOPC referral would have been immediate ) plus the crime commissioner (79 year old ex labour politician) must have pulled rank to start making statements without full knowledge of what was happening.

You're describing what you think should have happened and what you surmise did happen, not what we know about what actually happened in this instance.

But if you do know what happened in this instance please could you add the sources.

Thanks

Jonathan

[ossie]

It isn't clear to me. I don't know who knew what when.

I expect that we will discover more about that from the IOPC investigation as it's covered explicitly in their statement.

It's not clear to you because you don't know the processes which is understandable. With any road death one of the first things that is ascertained is if there was any police involvement. If so this would be an immediate referral to the IOPC.

The issue that's arisen here is that the crime commissioner, bless him, has taken it upon himself after consultation with the control room many miles away to try and quell a riot. The control room clearly had zero knowledge a van had followed these lads.

Ordinarily, no such information would be divulged so quickly or without an investigation taking place.

There are two issues here for me. The van driver withheld the fact he was following these kids ( the control room would have flagged it and IOPC referral would have been immediate ) plus the crime commissioner (79 year old ex labour politician) must have pulled rank to start making statements without full knowledge of what was happening.

You're describing what you think should have happened and what you surmise did happen, not what we know about what actually happened in this instance.

But if you do know what happened in this instance please could you add the sources.

Thanks

Jonathan

I'm offering an opinion based on experience. At no point have I ever said these were the facts. Your offer your opinion all of the time on here based on your professional experience and not once have I questioned them.

Thanks Ossie

[Jdsk]

Thankyou.

When you used wording such as

Clearly the Crime commissioner , control room and South Wales Police had no knowledge of the vans involvement when they made those statements...

and

The van driver withheld the fact he was following these kids...

I understood them to be facts about the specific instance under discussion. I now understand that this isn't what you meant.

Jonathan

[cycle tramp]

Problem in the UK is the looney left human rights brigade, they just love sticking two fingers up at society and protecting the criminals. The police's hands are now so tied with bureaucracy they have mostly given up, just biding their time until the big fat public sector pension kicks in.

Not the loony right then for cutting spending on Police, resulting in a smaller police force? I'm guessing if the Police's pension is so big and fat, you'll be making your own application to the force where on a daily basis you can receive verbal abuse and the possibility of receiving actual bodily violence?

...ah, that will be a 'no' then?

[ossie]

edit.

[mattheus]

Where does “being followed” become “being chased”?

How vital are the words “when they were killed” in the sentence, given that it appears that the police van had to divert from following the boys because they went down a road that has bollards across it?

I’m wondering whether the police didn’t actually lie, but were very economical with the truth.

Have you read this? viewtopic.php?p=1775074#p1775074

[Nearholmer]

I have, and I’m also wondering whether the police might have made a complete hash of their communications by saying too much, too definitively, too soon.

There’s a lot to wonder about in all this, and precious few facts.

[Pebble]

Problem in the UK is the looney left human rights brigade, they just love sticking two fingers up at society and protecting the criminals. The police's hands are now so tied with bureaucracy they have mostly given up, just biding their time until the big fat public sector pension kicks in.

Not the loony right then for cutting spending on Police, resulting in a smaller police force?

in 1970 there was 1 police officer for every 610 people
in 2023 there is 1 police officer for every 475 people
that is an increase of 28%

Crime is now out of control - if the police haven't given up, then what are they doing? It's a rare event to even see one now, are they mostly working from home these days?

[Paulatic]

[
in 1970 there was 1 police officer for every 610 people
in 2023 there is 1 police officer for every 475 people
that is an increase of 28%

Crime is now out of control - if the police haven't given up, then what are they doing? It's a rare event to even see one now, are they mostly working from home these days?

I don’t think you are comparing like with like. I wonder how much vehicle related incidents and drug related work they had to do in 1970? Or even consider tackling cyber crime.
Why not insert the year 2010 in there when there was 1 police officer for every 375 people? Support staff fallen 9% and special constables fallen 7% since 2010. https://researchbriefings.files.parliam ... N00634.pdf

I agree crime, of many facets, does appear to be rife. Policemen and GP's are like hen's teeth. As a rural dweller It looks worse in cities/towns and the way people have to live within them. I’m not sure more police is the long term answer especially when it appears some working in the police force are also infected with the same sickness.

[Carlton green]

Problem in the UK is the looney left human rights brigade, they just love sticking two fingers up at society and protecting the criminals. The police's hands are now so tied with bureaucracy they have mostly given up, just biding their time until the big fat public sector pension kicks in.

Not the loony right then for cutting spending on Police, resulting in a smaller police force? I'm guessing if the Police's pension is so big and fat, you'll be making your own application to the force where on a daily basis you can receive verbal abuse and the possibility of receiving actual bodily violence?

...ah, that will be a 'no' then?

..I guess it's back to writing for the daily express... do they still accept drafts in wax crayon?

“Social media made folks way too comfortable with disrespecting people and not getting punched in the face for it” - Mike Tyson.

[simonineaston]

Not directly relevant to south Wales, but Mark Rowley has recently made this annnouncment.

Sir Mark Rowley says he will order his officers not to attend thousands of calls they get every year to deal with mental health incidents.

If I've understood the impact correctly this will free up a considerable number of police, at the same time as begging the Q who'll be helping folks with mental health crises. Sounds as if they will be rather cast adrift...

[Jdsk]

Not directly relevant to south Wales, but Mark Rowley has recently made this annnouncment.

Sir Mark Rowley says he will order his officers not to attend thousands of calls they get every year to deal with mental health incidents.

If I've understood the impact correctly this will free up a considerable number of police, at the same time as begging the Q who'll be helping folks with mental health crises. Sounds as if they will be rather cast adrift...

Current discussion:
viewtopic.php?p=1775333#p1775333

Jonathan