Ely riot, 2023

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Psamathe
Posts: 17616
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Ely riot, 2023

Post by Psamathe »

slowster wrote: 29 May 2023, 1:18pm In the 1970s great weight was placed on the evidence of police officers in court, and their integrity was very rarely questioned. That made the work of the police (and the prosecution sevice) a lot easier in getting convictions, but it probably lead to a lot of wrongful convictions. The very high profile miscarriages of justice such as the Guildford Four were probably just the tip of an iceberg. The tip itself received a lot of media and public attention, but the rest of the iceberg went largely undetected.

To give some idea of the degree of faith that the courts had in police witness evidence, the year after the convictions of the Guildford Four were quashed, Lord Denning said in an interview that 'if the Guildford Four had been hanged "They'd probably have hanged the right men. Just not proved against them, that's all".'

The police officers responsible for falsifying and deliberately suppressing evidence in high profile miscarriages of justice in the 1970s and 1980s were not prosecuted or even kicked off the force. The West Midlands Serious Crime Squad, whose officers had been responsible for the Birmingham Six miscarriage of justice, was disbanded but the officers went unpunished. The Met, in particular the CID, had an appalling reputation for corruption, referring to which the commissioner at the time, Sir Robert Mark, said "a good police force is one that catches more crooks than it employs".

Juries are now much less willing to convict solely on police witness evidence, and it is much more likely that a defence barrister will attack the credibility and the honesty of a police officer. Moreover, if there is information that would undermine the credibility of the officer, e.g. serious past misconduct, the prosecution must disclose that to the defence (which probably did not happen in the 1970s and 1980s). Consequently, compared with the 1970s, the police have to do a lot more work recording and gathering evidence and preparing a case for the CPS, and that probably accounts for a significant percentage of the increase in the number of officers.
Maybe additionally video recordings by the public are far more commonplace, particularly as whilst smartphones have had video capability for some time, things like Tick-tock mean people are familiar to quick start recording something they see (might be postable and get clicks on their Social Media account) plus private CCTV is cheap these days (with the easy to use online home monitoring systems ...).

This means that where previously the Officer's story would have had to be accepted by press and courts, these days when Police make claims about their actions it isn't long before it transpires some observer turns-up with a recording. Police seem to have not yet appreciated this.

Ian
Pebble
Posts: 1930
Joined: 7 Jun 2020, 11:59pm

Re: Ely riot, 2023

Post by Pebble »

Psamathe wrote: 29 May 2023, 2:38pm
Maybe additionally video recordings by the public are far more commonplace, particularly as whilst smartphones have had video capability for some time, things like Tick-tock mean people are familiar to quick start recording something they see (might be postable and get clicks on their Social Media account) plus private CCTV is cheap these days (with the easy to use online home monitoring systems ...).

This means that where previously the Officer's story would have had to be accepted by press and courts, these days when Police make claims about their actions it isn't long before it transpires some observer turns-up with a recording. Police seem to have not yet appreciated this.

Ian
Which brings us back to this thread; You would hope that high up police officers would by now understand that everything has probably been filmed. You would also hope that high up police officers would be intelligent. So why make categoric claims about something he is 100% certain of. He needs sacked for stupidity.
the snail
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Joined: 5 Aug 2011, 3:11pm

Re: Ely riot, 2023

Post by the snail »

Pebble wrote: 27 May 2023, 10:13am Crushing is the answer, mobile crushing machines, if the bike (or in deed car or lorry) is being used illegally then it gets thrown into the crushing machine. No if's no but's it just goes into the crusher.

Problem in the UK is the looney left human rights brigade, they just love sticking two fingers up at society and protecting the criminals. The police's hands are now so tied with bureaucracy they have mostly given up, just biding their time until the big fat public sector pension kicks in.
Or the loony right wingers that voted to slash police funding over the last decade.
reohn2
Posts: 45143
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Ely riot, 2023

Post by reohn2 »

pwa wrote: 29 May 2023, 11:41am I have some sympathy with local police on this, because what can they do? A kid on a motorcycle, willing to take risks, is going to be nigh on impossible to catch. In this instance the police were in a van, which the lad being followed would have known couldn't catch him. He would have been confident of escaping down a route between bollards. And if the police go and try to have a word with the parents, where will that get them? The parents hate the police and condone the illegal motorcycling. Neighbours, quite understandably, are going to stay quiet. They have to be there at night when the police have gone.

I feel fortunate to live somewhere quieter. Ely has a dire reputation within the region, and most of the kids living there will have their early years blighted by what goes on around them. Every built-up region has an estate like that, and we have to remember that good people live in them, trying to live their lives with a degree of disorder going on around them.
I can't argue with any of that,there are housing estates or part of estates where they're a law unto themselves and police know they're wasting their time there.
That said,the police don't cover themselves in glory either and as for some politicians,not without justification,are just another tier of authority to hate for some people.
As I stated in my previous post,I was brought with nowt in a pretty rough area,but there were certain lines we as teenagers wouldn't cross,call it a respect for the law or just fear of it,but these days anything goes including youngsters stabbing each other to death.
Respect for others is it seems is a dwindling commodity in some quarters of society.
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
Jdsk
Posts: 24478
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Ely riot, 2023

Post by Jdsk »

There's a comment somewhere above about the need for facts.

For most crimes the number recorded by police is a very poor statistic. But fortunately we have the Crime Survey for England and Wales (formerly the British Crime Survey):
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulation ... cember2022
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_Sur ... _and_Wales

The idea of descent into uncontrollable rates of crime in recent years isn't supported by the data.

Jonathan

For example: Violent crime 1982 to 2020:

Screenshot 2023-05-29 at 16.45.10.png
reohn2
Posts: 45143
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Ely riot, 2023

Post by reohn2 »

the snail wrote: 29 May 2023, 3:57pm
Pebble wrote: 27 May 2023, 10:13am Crushing is the answer, mobile crushing machines, if the bike (or in deed car or lorry) is being used illegally then it gets thrown into the crushing machine. No if's no but's it just goes into the crusher.

Problem in the UK is the looney left human rights brigade, they just love sticking two fingers up at society and protecting the criminals. The police's hands are now so tied with bureaucracy they have mostly given up, just biding their time until the big fat public sector pension kicks in.
Or the loony right wingers that voted to slash police funding over the last decade.
Aye and to the tune of 23,000 beat officers and 21,000 support staff,thanks to Teresa May not exactly "loonie left" eh?
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
slowster
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Re: Ely riot, 2023

Post by slowster »

At around 6.20am on the morning after the events, Alun Michael, the PCC, told BBC Radio Wales unprompted that there had been rumours on social media of a police chase and that those were untrue - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001m3r2.

That would appear to be consistent with ossie's suspicions of what happened, i.e. Alun Michael spoke to the police media team and/or others in the police, and asked them about the rumours of a chase. If they had been asked about them by a journalist rather than the PCC, they would probably have said the police were still investigating. After Alun Michael had spoken to the press, the media team could not then contradict his statement when they were subsequently contacted by journalists for further information.

In contrast the statement by the assistant chief constable reported on the live feed on the BBC News website at 9.29am simply said "Our focus now is to fully investigate the circumstances of the collision and the appalling scenes that followed." - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-wale ... 556/page/5.
pwa
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Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Ely riot, 2023

Post by pwa »

Jdsk wrote: 29 May 2023, 4:46pm There's a comment somewhere above about the need for facts.

For most crimes the number recorded by police is a very poor statistic. But fortunately we have the Crime Survey for England and Wales (formerly the British Crime Survey):
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulation ... cember2022
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_Sur ... _and_Wales

The idea of descent into uncontrollable rates of crime in recent years isn't supported by the data.

Jonathan

For example: Violent crime 1982 to 2020:


Screenshot 2023-05-29 at 16.45.10.png
But we don't know how many crimes go unreported, and if that number is changing. If I were the victim of a minor assault, I'm not sure I would bother reporting it. The chances of a proper investigation and conviction would probably be small. In fact, thinking back, I was attacked twice when I was much younger, and later on had a spade thrown at me. All those actions were crimes, and none were reported. There didn't seem any point. So the figures you dug up look to me like the tip of an iceberg, and we don't know how big it is.
Jdsk
Posts: 24478
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Ely riot, 2023

Post by Jdsk »

pwa wrote: 29 May 2023, 5:08pm
Jdsk wrote: 29 May 2023, 4:46pm There's a comment somewhere above about the need for facts.

For most crimes the number recorded by police is a very poor statistic. But fortunately we have the Crime Survey for England and Wales (formerly the British Crime Survey):
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulation ... cember2022
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_Sur ... _and_Wales

The idea of descent into uncontrollable rates of crime in recent years isn't supported by the data.

For example: Violent crime 1982 to 2020:
But we don't know how many crimes go unreported, and if that number is changing. If I were the victim of a minor assault, I'm not sure I would bother reporting it. The chances of a proper investigation and conviction would probably be small. In fact, thinking back, I was attacked twice when I was much younger, and later on had a spade thrown at me. All those actions were crimes, and none were reported. There didn't seem any point. So the figures you dug up look to me like the tip of an iceberg, and we don't know how big it is.
The Crime Survey figures do not rely on reports to the police.

Jonathan
pwa
Posts: 17357
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Ely riot, 2023

Post by pwa »

Jdsk wrote: 29 May 2023, 5:11pm
pwa wrote: 29 May 2023, 5:08pm
Jdsk wrote: 29 May 2023, 4:46pm There's a comment somewhere above about the need for facts.

For most crimes the number recorded by police is a very poor statistic. But fortunately we have the Crime Survey for England and Wales (formerly the British Crime Survey):
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulation ... cember2022
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_Sur ... _and_Wales

The idea of descent into uncontrollable rates of crime in recent years isn't supported by the data.

For example: Violent crime 1982 to 2020:
But we don't know how many crimes go unreported, and if that number is changing. If I were the victim of a minor assault, I'm not sure I would bother reporting it. The chances of a proper investigation and conviction would probably be small. In fact, thinking back, I was attacked twice when I was much younger, and later on had a spade thrown at me. All those actions were crimes, and none were reported. There didn't seem any point. So the figures you dug up look to me like the tip of an iceberg, and we don't know how big it is.
The Crime Survey figures do not rely on reports to the police.

Jonathan
People are randomly approached and asked for their experiences?
reohn2
Posts: 45143
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Ely riot, 2023

Post by reohn2 »

Jdsk wrote: 29 May 2023, 4:46pm There's a comment somewhere above about the need for facts.

For most crimes the number recorded by police is a very poor statistic. But fortunately we have the Crime Survey for England and Wales (formerly the British Crime Survey):
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulation ... cember2022
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_Sur ... _and_Wales

The idea of descent into uncontrollable rates of crime in recent years isn't supported by the data.

Jonathan

For example: Violent crime 1982 to 2020:


Screenshot 2023-05-29 at 16.45.10.png
What the data doesn't tell us is that less and less crime is being reported because the police don't follow up on it,that I strongly suspect is because there are less police numbers available to deal with crime generally,people know this and as a result there's no point in reporting it,such a situation makes the data unreliable.
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
Jdsk
Posts: 24478
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Ely riot, 2023

Post by Jdsk »

pwa wrote: 29 May 2023, 5:16pm
Jdsk wrote: 29 May 2023, 5:11pm
pwa wrote: 29 May 2023, 5:08pm But we don't know how many crimes go unreported, and if that number is changing. If I were the victim of a minor assault, I'm not sure I would bother reporting it. The chances of a proper investigation and conviction would probably be small. In fact, thinking back, I was attacked twice when I was much younger, and later on had a spade thrown at me. All those actions were crimes, and none were reported. There didn't seem any point. So the figures you dug up look to me like the tip of an iceberg, and we don't know how big it is.
The Crime Survey figures do not rely on reports to the police.
People are randomly approached and asked for their experiences?
Descriptions of methodology linked above. And here's one version of the letter of invitation:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... cs-faq.pdf

Jonathan
reohn2
Posts: 45143
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Ely riot, 2023

Post by reohn2 »

Jdsk wrote: 29 May 2023, 5:11pm The Crime Survey figures do not rely on reports to the police.

Jonathan
What do they rely on?
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
Jdsk
Posts: 24478
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Ely riot, 2023

Post by Jdsk »

reohn2 wrote: 29 May 2023, 5:17pm
Jdsk wrote: 29 May 2023, 4:46pm There's a comment somewhere above about the need for facts.

For most crimes the number recorded by police is a very poor statistic. But fortunately we have the Crime Survey for England and Wales (formerly the British Crime Survey):
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulation ... cember2022
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_Sur ... _and_Wales

The idea of descent into uncontrollable rates of crime in recent years isn't supported by the data.
For example: Violent crime 1982 to 2020:
What the data doesn't tell us is that less and less crime is being reported because the police don't follow up on it,that I strongly suspect is because there are less police numbers available to deal with crime generally,people know this and as a result there's no point in reporting it,such a situation makes the data unreliable.
Jdsk wrote: 29 May 2023, 5:11pmThe Crime Survey figures do not rely on reports to the police.
Jonathan
Jdsk
Posts: 24478
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Ely riot, 2023

Post by Jdsk »

reohn2 wrote: 29 May 2023, 5:20pm
Jdsk wrote: 29 May 2023, 5:11pm The Crime Survey figures do not rely on reports to the police.
What do they rely on?
The methodology is linked above and I've now added the letter that is given to those invited to contribute to the Survey.

Jonathan
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