Ely riot, 2023

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pwa
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Re: Ely riot, 2023

Post by pwa »

Jdsk wrote: 29 May 2023, 5:19pm
pwa wrote: 29 May 2023, 5:16pm
Jdsk wrote: 29 May 2023, 5:11pm
The Crime Survey figures do not rely on reports to the police.
People are randomly approached and asked for their experiences?
Descriptions of methodology linked above. And here's one version of the letter of invitation:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... cs-faq.pdf

Jonathan
It sounds like a good attempt to get a feel for what is going on. But I would expect that some sections of society are more likely to respond than others.
mattheus
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Re: Ely riot, 2023

Post by mattheus »

slowster wrote: 29 May 2023, 4:59pm At around 6.20am on the morning after the events, Alun Michael, the PCC, told BBC Radio Wales unprompted that there had been rumours on social media of a police chase and that those were untrue - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001m3r2.

That would appear to be consistent with ossie's suspicions of what happened, i.e. Alun Michael spoke to the police media team and/or others in the police, and asked them about the rumours of a chase. If they had been asked about them by a journalist rather than the PCC, they would probably have said the police were still investigating. After Alun Michael had spoken to the press, the media team could not then contradict his statement when they were subsequently contacted by journalists for further information.

In contrast the statement by the assistant chief constable reported on the live feed on the BBC News website at 9.29am simply said "Our focus now is to fully investigate the circumstances of the collision and the appalling scenes that followed." - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-wale ... 556/page/5.
Excellent research Slowster, thank you. :idea: 👍
(Now it's not surprising how almost noone had managed to find the exact words used!)
mattheus
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Re: Ely riot, 2023

Post by mattheus »

Psamathe wrote: 29 May 2023, 10:38am
mattheus wrote: 29 May 2023, 9:01am
<snippage...>
Do you remember the riot? The reason for the early public statements was to minimise violence being committed by an angry mob.
Do you think public silence would have helped with that? Remember, the mob were angry about alleged police involvement with the teenagers' deaths ...
Whilst I have no experience of crowd control, and on the assumption that the Police involvement "rumours" on Social Media were a contributory factor, I'd expect that where the Social Media "rumours" were true and the Police come out and categorically deny that truth then that risks just pouring fuel on and already bad situation.

Clearly the Social Media "rumours" were started by people who knew the reality and others believed them so Police denying the truth (that many likely believed) with untruths is hardly going to encourage rioters to go home, more likely to aggravate them further.

Ian
Some truly gymnastic assumptions there!
mattheus
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Re: Ely riot, 2023

Post by mattheus »

It's obvious that a PCC (or other senior figure) solely concerned with saving face would have kept schtum until all facts were gathered. Nothing to gain by early denials. Nothing.

The only plausible reason TO ME for getting off the sofa at 7pm (or later?) and phoning round a number of staff, is to attempt de-escalation of the mass violence on a Cardiff street.

(P.s. any update on the exact lie told yet? I've listened to the radio news, AND read your Guardian links. To no avail... )
DaveReading
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Re: Ely riot, 2023

Post by DaveReading »

mattheus wrote: 29 May 2023, 6:18pmThe only plausible reason TO ME for getting off the sofa at 7pm (or later?) and phoning round a number of staff, is to attempt de-escalation of the mass violence on a Cardiff street.
That, or simple hubris.
reohn2
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Re: Ely riot, 2023

Post by reohn2 »

Jdsk wrote: 29 May 2023, 5:22pm
reohn2 wrote: 29 May 2023, 5:20pm
Jdsk wrote: 29 May 2023, 5:11pm The Crime Survey figures do not rely on reports to the police.
What do they rely on?
The methodology is linked above and I've now added the letter that is given to those invited to contribute to the Survey.

Jonathan
I'll stick to my previous answer.
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"All we are not stares back at what we are"
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ossie
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Re: Ely riot, 2023

Post by ossie »

Pebble wrote: 29 May 2023, 3:07pm
Psamathe wrote: 29 May 2023, 2:38pm
Maybe additionally video recordings by the public are far more commonplace, particularly as whilst smartphones have had video capability for some time, things like Tick-tock mean people are familiar to quick start recording something they see (might be postable and get clicks on their Social Media account) plus private CCTV is cheap these days (with the easy to use online home monitoring systems ...).

This means that where previously the Officer's story would have had to be accepted by press and courts, these days when Police make claims about their actions it isn't long before it transpires some observer turns-up with a recording. Police seem to have not yet appreciated this.

Ian
Which brings us back to this thread; You would hope that high up police officers would by now understand that everything has probably been filmed. You would also hope that high up police officers would be intelligent. So why make categoric claims about something he is 100% certain of. He needs sacked for stupidity.
He wasn't a police officer let alone a 'high up' police officer. He was a 79 year old crime commissioner, ex labour politician who hasn't served a day of his life in the Police.

He should never have been given that information but the internal politics of policing have been totally lost on me for some time. He may have pulled rank and demanded it under the circumstances...we don't know.

A police force isn't full of police Officers any more and there are politics involved. The control room handling the riot were more than likely 99% civilians with a token police presence (Insp) at the top table shared with a civilian supervisor. The media team releasing the info aren't police officers. It could turn out the driver of van wasn't a police officer but a PCSO (supposition not fact)

The only guaranteed 'police officers' in this whole situation may well have been the poor sods behind the shields getting bricks thrown at them by Cardiffs finest.
Carlton green
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Re: Ely riot, 2023

Post by Carlton green »

mattheus wrote: 29 May 2023, 9:01am
Carlton green wrote: 29 May 2023, 8:07am
ossie wrote: 28 May 2023, 8:57pm

I explained on the other thread that they didn't lie and it's in the post quoted up this thread. Clearly the Crime commissioner , control room and South Wales Police had no knowledge of the vans involvement when they made those statements, so its hardly lying.
That’s an interesting slant. The message here is that if you don’t know for sure then the best thing to do is to say so.
.
Well that's your opinion! Many disagree...

Do you remember the riot? The reason for the early public statements was to minimise violence being committed by an angry mob.
Do you think public silence would have helped with that? Remember, the mob were angry about alleged police involvement with the teenagers' deaths ...
Did I suggest silence? What I suggested was truth and an awareness of common understanding. So factual presentation of what police activity presence there might have been in Ely as part of normal patrols would have been good. That the force would be questioning all officers that had been in the area would have been good too. As it happens folk got hold of the wrong end of the stick, how the youths actually ended up dead isn’t clear to me, perhaps the truth will eventually emerge.
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
pwa
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Re: Ely riot, 2023

Post by pwa »

I understand that in a dynamic situation, with lots of things going on, there can be some breakdown in communication. But it would have been much better if the police had quickly put out a statement that accurately reflected the fact that whilst they had not been close to the boys at the time of the crash, they had been following them shortly before. However, I also believe that the thing that created concern about their handling of the incident initially was their lack of communication with the families of the boys whilst paramedics were doing their best. They were kept away and not even told that their loved ones were the ones involved in the crash. Allegedly for two hours. That is a long time to wait to find out if your loved one is alive or dead.

I have also heard that the families did not ask for or condone the riot that followed, and that some of the rioters came from other areas, probably through a liking for riots rather than anger at what had happened. It was estimated that about 150 people rioted. The population of the Ely estate is 15 000, so even if all the rioters had been locals, most folk were not involved and were probably just guarding their homes.
Nearholmer
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Re: Ely riot, 2023

Post by Nearholmer »

Here’s a diagram that might help.
D4F63AE9-6A9D-45B4-93E0-7C8E17AAE50D.jpeg
Riots often happen in this country because a particular thing, usually something that appears to those on the ground to involve “oppressive authority”, acts as a spark in a tinder-box, and to mix metaphors, the lid temporarily blows off.

As someone else said up-thread: we are no longer tough on the causes of crime. We’re back in the loop of stupidity that the diagram attempts to highlight.
Last edited by Nearholmer on 30 May 2023, 9:35am, edited 1 time in total.
Psamathe
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Re: Ely riot, 2023

Post by Psamathe »

mattheus wrote: 29 May 2023, 6:18pm It's obvious that a PCC (or other senior figure) solely concerned with saving face would have kept schtum until all facts were gathered. Nothing to gain by early denials. Nothing.

The only plausible reason TO ME for getting off the sofa at 7pm (or later?) and phoning round a number of staff, is to attempt de-escalation of the mass violence on a Cardiff street.

(P.s. any update on the exact lie told yet? I've listened to the radio news, AND read your Guardian links. To no avail... )
Some truly gymnastic assumptions there!
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simonineaston
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Re: Ely riot, 2023

Post by simonineaston »

Quick straw pole: how many of us cycle uk forum readers posses a balaclava? You do? Supplimentary - could you readily put your hand on it, one pleasant May evening?
S
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Psamathe
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Re: Ely riot, 2023

Post by Psamathe »

ossie wrote: 29 May 2023, 8:25pm ...
The only guaranteed 'police officers' in this whole situation may well have been the poor sods behind the shields getting bricks thrown at them by Cardiffs finest.
So it doesn't concern you that the pursuing van with Police logos down the side, etc. was not driven by Police Officers? (as you tell us now, with all your experience that the only Police Officers involved where those attending the subsequent riot).

My default assumption would be to question your assertion.

Ian
mattheus
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Re: Ely riot, 2023

Post by mattheus »

Psamathe wrote: 30 May 2023, 9:34am
Some truly gymnastic assumptions there!
Gosh, what a cunning debate tactic, well-played!

(Any update on the evidence of actual lies told? I can wait, but it's been a week now ... )
mattheus
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Re: Ely riot, 2023

Post by mattheus »

simonineaston wrote: 30 May 2023, 9:38am Quick straw pole: how many of us cycle uk forum readers posses a balaclava? You do? Supplimentary - could you readily put your hand on it, one pleasant May evening?
I choose to not answer, on the grounds that my answer may incriminate me skew the findings of this court.

:roll:
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