Ely riot, 2023

[Carlton green]

The lie was It would appear that there were rumours, and those rumours became rife, of a police chase - which wasn't the case.

You've already had sources given. Next time do your own Googling (it really isn't that difficult).

Ian

I explained on the other thread that they didn't lie and it's in the post quoted up this thread. Clearly the Crime commissioner , control room and South Wales Police had no knowledge of the vans involvement when they made those statements, so its hardly lying.

That’s an interesting slant. The message here is that if you don’t know for sure then the best thing to do is to say so.

South Wales Police and Police in general don’t have the blemish-less name that they should have, and that is due to the past acts of other officers in the past. Yes, to tar everyone with the same brush is wrong but it is human nature.

[cycle tramp]

Problem in the UK is the looney left human rights brigade, they just love sticking two fingers up at society and protecting the criminals. The police's hands are now so tied with bureaucracy they have mostly given up, just biding their time until the big fat public sector pension kicks in.

Not the loony right then for cutting spending on Police, resulting in a smaller police force?

in 1970 there was 1 police officer for every 610 people
in 2023 there is 1 police officer for every 475 people
that is an increase of 28%

Crime is now out of control - if the police haven't given up, then what are they doing? It's a rare event to even see one now, are they mostly working from home these days?

That's a decrease on the 2010 figure then and in response to your later enquiry- they can't all be working from home as if you look carefully at the video link at the start of this thread you can see a Police van...

Is crime out of control? Probably - there was deep concern about the number of MPs taking illegal drugs.. which mean that a number of our elected representatives are actually financially supporting criminal networks (which puts our most vulnerable members of society at risk either through involvement or by proximity).
If we're going to make examples out of anyone I suggest we start at the top. Start by introducing random blood tests, instant dismissals, and then a campaign of naming and shaming. Anyone taking public money to make decisions which affect us all, should at least have the decency to do so with their (limited) wits unclouded.
Either make illegal drugs legal again, thereby ensuring that these drugs enter the market place clean, that income streams to criminal networks are removed and heavily tax them* or don't use them at all.
(p.s. teetotal for over 20 years now)
(* funding out reach projects to help users stay and remain clean)

[cycle tramp]

Problem in the UK is the looney left human rights brigade, they just love sticking two fingers up at society and protecting the criminals. The police's hands are now so tied with bureaucracy they have mostly given up, just biding their time until the big fat public sector pension kicks in.

Not the loony right then for cutting spending on Police, resulting in a smaller police force? I'm guessing if the Police's pension is so big and fat, you'll be making your own application to the force where on a daily basis you can receive verbal abuse and the possibility of receiving actual bodily violence?

...ah, that will be a 'no' then?

..I guess it's back to writing for the daily express... do they still accept drafts in wax crayon?

“Social media made folks way too comfortable with disrespecting people and not getting punched in the face for it” - Mike Tyson.

Spoken like a true boxer, having done a bit of krav manga I'd never recommend punching anyone in the face. Any blow to the head can cause injuries that you were not intending.. also it opens up your own soft areas for any counter blow. Even worse if they were military trained they were probably expecting the jab, have caught your arm and have broken it in two places, before you can say 'ow, that hurts alot'...

..everyone should try a self defence class at least once, if only to be told that punching people in the head isn't a great idea..

[simonineaston]

Two observations based on the posts in this topic so far: One: It's such a very human thing to do (apparently) to try to join the dots! And two: me and chums went for our usual Sunday walk yesterday, which took us out of and back through the city streets. We were talking a lot about the Ely incident and the increasing use of e-bikes, whether they are legal and how the police should respond. During the inner city part of the walk we kept a casual count of e-bikes that appeared to be illegal (9) as well as police presence (1, Nick our local cpso, also on a bike albeit non-electric).

[mattheus]

The lie was It would appear that there were rumours, and those rumours became rife, of a police chase - which wasn't the case.

You've already had sources given. Next time do your own Googling (it really isn't that difficult).

Ian

I explained on the other thread that they didn't lie and it's in the post quoted up this thread. Clearly the Crime commissioner , control room and South Wales Police had no knowledge of the vans involvement when they made those statements, so its hardly lying.

That’s an interesting slant. The message here is that if you don’t know for sure then the best thing to do is to say so.
.

Well that's your opinion! Many disagree...

Do you remember the riot? The reason for the early public statements was to minimise violence being committed by an angry mob.
Do you think public silence would have helped with that? Remember, the mob were angry about alleged police involvement with the teenagers' deaths ...

[Jon in Sweden]

Hmmmmm.....

It's very difficult for me to personally have much sympathy for the kids that crashed. I realise that it's personally tragic for them and their families, but whether you want to classify it as death by misadventure or Darwinism is your choice.

Maybe the policing side of it could have been handled better, but even if the police were following them, I can't see the problem with that. Two youths, behaving suspiciously, riding an illegal bike in an illegal fashion.

Forgive me for not recalling if it was this forum but I read the account of a chap losing his mother-in-law to an illegal e-bike collision and that is where my sympathy lies.

Almost all kids do stupid things and take stupid risks and most of us grow out of it.

But the whole riot and (over)reaction in the media to this incident conveniently forgets that the kids in question were at fault. It's awful for them, yes, but sadly part of life (and death).

Something really does need to be done about the profusion of e-bikes/scooters, regarding licencing and tests. Here in Sweden, kids from 15 have the opportunity to drive "A-Tractors". These are normal cars (usually) limited to 30kph. This allows kids to get around in rural areas in relative safety. But there are tests and licences required and whilst they can be a PITA to overtake sometimes, at least it's usually a slowly moving Volvo rather than an erractically moving scooter/bike.

[pwa]

I expect that most of us here, perhaps even all of us, think that giving a teenage boy a motorcycle to ride in public spaces without a licence, insurance or a helmet, is an irresponsible thing to do, just asking for trouble. But within communities like this, and by no means representing the entirety of those communities, there is a sub-culture that sees illegal motorcycle use by kids almost as a right, something that boys should be allowed to do. I struggle to understand it, but it exists.

[Psamathe]

...
in 1970 there was 1 police officer for every 610 people
in 2023 there is 1 police officer for every 475 people
that is an increase of 28%

Crime is now out of control - if the police haven't given up, then what are they doing? It's a rare event to even see one now, are they mostly working from home these days?

I don't have quotable sources but I would imagine the nature of crime and the investigation techniques possible has changed massively since 1970. Just look at e.g. computers, internet, banking, investigation (e.g. DNA, crime scene analysis). even things like vehicle safety, etc., etc..

So my guess would be comparing today against 1970 is not a useful comparison.

Ian

[Psamathe]

I explained on the other thread that they didn't lie and it's in the post quoted up this thread. Clearly the Crime commissioner , control room and South Wales Police had no knowledge of the vans involvement when they made those statements, so its hardly lying.

That’s an interesting slant. The message here is that if you don’t know for sure then the best thing to do is to say so.
.

Well that's your opinion! Many disagree...

Do you remember the riot? The reason for the early public statements was to minimise violence being committed by an angry mob.
Do you think public silence would have helped with that? Remember, the mob were angry about alleged police involvement with the teenagers' deaths ...

Whilst I have no experience of crowd control, and on the assumption that the Police involvement "rumours" on Social Media were a contributory factor, I'd expect that where the Social Media "rumours" were true and the Police come out and categorically deny that truth then that risks just pouring fuel on and already bad situation.

Clearly the Social Media "rumours" were started by people who knew the reality and others believed them so Police denying the truth (that many likely believed) with untruths is hardly going to encourage rioters to go home, more likely to aggravate them further.

Ian

[reohn2]

I expect that most of us here, perhaps even all of us, think that giving a teenage boy a motorcycle to ride in public spaces without a licence, insurance or a helmet, is an irresponsible thing to do, just asking for trouble. But within communities like this, and by no means representing the entirety of those communities, there is a sub-culture that sees illegal motorcycle use by kids almost as a right, something that boys should be allowed to do. I struggle to understand it, but it exists.

+1
That said between the ages of 13 to 16(when we got our prov licences)myself and two friends rented a garage where we kept a couple of old BSA Bantams a Triumph Tiger cub and latterly a 350 AJS scrambler,which we rode extensively off road on the many pit rucks that surrounded our village and on a farm we used to help out on after the crops we harvested and before we ploughed it
We never rode those bikes on the road and were told by the local bobby that we were OK to ride them off road so long as we were careful.
When I got my prof licence at 16 we rode together and whlst we might have written "Tax in Post" occasionally,riding without insurance or MOT was a no,no and that went for the other bikers we were friendly with at the time,but that was 55years ago things have changed and not for the better.
I see loonies occasionally riding on the roads locally without helmets no reg plates wearing ski masks,there's never a bobby about when you need one as they say.

[pwa]

I expect that most of us here, perhaps even all of us, think that giving a teenage boy a motorcycle to ride in public spaces without a licence, insurance or a helmet, is an irresponsible thing to do, just asking for trouble. But within communities like this, and by no means representing the entirety of those communities, there is a sub-culture that sees illegal motorcycle use by kids almost as a right, something that boys should be allowed to do. I struggle to understand it, but it exists.

+1
That said between the ages of 13 to 16(when we got our prov licences)myself and two friends rented a garage where we kept a couple of old BSA Bantams a Triumph Tiger cub and latterly a 350 AJS scrambler,which we rode extensively off road on the many pit rucks that surrounded our village and on a farm we used to help out on after the crops we harvested and before we ploughed it
We never rode those bikes on the road and were told by the local bobby that we were OK to ride them off road so long as we were careful.
When I got my prof licence at 16 we rode together and whlst we might have written "Tax in Post" occasionally,riding without insurance or MOT was a no,no and that went for the other bikers we were friendly with at the time,but that was 55years ago things have changed and not for the better.
I see loonies occasionally riding on the roads locally without helmets no reg plates wearing ski masks,there's never a bobby about when you need one as they say.

I have some sympathy with local police on this, because what can they do? A kid on a motorcycle, willing to take risks, is going to be nigh on impossible to catch. In this instance the police were in a van, which the lad being followed would have known couldn't catch him. He would have been confident of escaping down a route between bollards. And if the police go and try to have a word with the parents, where will that get them? The parents hate the police and condone the illegal motorcycling. Neighbours, quite understandably, are going to stay quiet. They have to be there at night when the police have gone.

I feel fortunate to live somewhere quieter. Ely has a dire reputation within the region, and most of the kids living there will have their early years blighted by what goes on around them. Every built-up region has an estate like that, and we have to remember that good people live in them, trying to live their lives with a degree of disorder going on around them.

[Pebble]

...
in 1970 there was 1 police officer for every 610 people
in 2023 there is 1 police officer for every 475 people
that is an increase of 28%

Crime is now out of control - if the police haven't given up, then what are they doing? It's a rare event to even see one now, are they mostly working from home these days?

I don't have quotable sources but I would imagine the nature of crime and the investigation techniques possible has changed massively since 1970. Just look at e.g. computers, internet, banking, investigation (e.g. DNA, crime scene analysis). even things like vehicle safety, etc., etc..

So my guess would be comparing today against 1970 is not a useful comparison.

Ian

Indeed, it is suffering from the same fate as the NHS, as technology improves, the costs and the man power needed just becomes unsustainable. May be AI will help, but may be not, humans have a habit of tuning great things to sinister ends.

And the Poloice in the 1970's (my teenage years) were dreadful, they used to go around beating people up (it wasn't a nice area I spent my youth) But the police literally used to just go about beating folk up, sometimes quite badly, but they did seem to have more respect than what they have now, and they did seem to be on the side of good people. as far as I know they never give anybody a good kicking who didn't deserve it. (including the night one floored me with a punch)

[slowster]

In the 1970s great weight was placed on the evidence of police officers in court, and their integrity was very rarely questioned. That made the work of the police (and the prosecution sevice) a lot easier in getting convictions, but it probably lead to a lot of wrongful convictions. The very high profile miscarriages of justice such as the Guildford Four were probably just the tip of an iceberg. The tip itself received a lot of media and public attention, but the rest of the iceberg went largely undetected.

To give some idea of the degree of faith that the courts had in police witness evidence, the year after the convictions of the Guildford Four were quashed, Lord Denning said in an interview that 'if the Guildford Four had been hanged "They'd probably have hanged the right men. Just not proved against them, that's all".'

The police officers responsible for falsifying and deliberately suppressing evidence in high profile miscarriages of justice in the 1970s and 1980s were not prosecuted or even kicked off the force. The West Midlands Serious Crime Squad, whose officers had been responsible for the Birmingham Six miscarriage of justice, was disbanded but the officers went unpunished. The Met, in particular the CID, had an appalling reputation for corruption, referring to which the commissioner at the time, Sir Robert Mark, said "a good police force is one that catches more crooks than it employs".

Juries are now much less willing to convict solely on police witness evidence, and it is much more likely that a defence barrister will attack the credibility and the honesty of a police officer. Moreover, if there is information that would undermine the credibility of the officer, e.g. serious past misconduct, the prosecution must disclose that to the defence (which probably did not happen in the 1970s and 1980s). Consequently, compared with the 1970s, the police have to do a lot more work recording and gathering evidence and preparing a case for the CPS, and that probably accounts for a significant percentage of the increase in the number of officers.

[Stevek76]

Indeed, it is suffering from the same fate as the NHS, as technology improves, the costs and the man power needed just becomes unsustainable.

Both are perfectly sustainable. To not sustain them is simply a fiscal choice by this government.

[Pebble]

Indeed, it is suffering from the same fate as the NHS, as technology improves, the costs and the man power needed just becomes unsustainable.

Both are perfectly sustainable. To not sustain them is simply a fiscal choice by this government.

and of course a choice by the electorate, a group who do not warm to the idea of paying for stuff.

tax at 30p in the pound would sort many a public service, but what government would get elected with that proposal. they will promise even more efficiancys, non doms and the super rich, non of which will ever cut the mustard.