Ely riot, 2023

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Jdsk
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Ely riot, 2023

Post by Jdsk »

This deserves a thread of its own.

South Wales Police statements:
https://www.south-wales.police.uk/news/ ... ales/news/

Latest statement from the IOPC:
https://www.policeconduct.gov.uk/news/u ... nagers-ely
includes:

We are investigating:
• the nature of the police interaction with the two boys prior to the collision and the appropriateness of the police officers’ decisions and actions
• whether at any time the decisions and actions of the officers in the police vehicle constituted a pursuit
• whether the interaction between the police officers and the boys was reported appropriately by the officers prior to and following the collision
• and whether the actions and decisions of South Wales Police over the interaction were in line with legislation, local and national policies and procedures.


The First Minister has identified social conditions caused by the government as a cause:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... t-minister

Jonathan

PS:

The 1991 Ely riot:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardiff_Ely_bread_riots
mattheus
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Re: Ely riot, 2023

Post by mattheus »

Jdsk wrote: 26 May 2023, 4:27pm This deserves a thread of its own.

South Wales Police statements:
https://www.south-wales.police.uk/news/ ... ales/news/
Possibly easier to find here:
https://www.south-wales.police.uk/news/ ... ve-update/
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simonineaston
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Re: Ely riot, 2023

Post by simonineaston »

Awful loss to two families. Begs a whole load of questions on the subject of e-bikes, legality and the consequences.
In the same week, I and three other pedestrians had a near-miss, when we were buzzed by an adult guy travelling past us on the pavement on a private e-scooter at high speed. One of the pedestrains was quite shaken up, haing been brushed as the guy flew past. We contacted the police for their take and the cpso I spoke to said that they can't or aren't supposed to, pursue, the reason being if the person/s of interest isn't wearing a helmet, there's risk. They prefer as the cpso put it, to try to educate, holding occasional local 'chat & advise' sessions. (My quote marks)
Of course, I don't know how they define "pursue" and how it differs from "follow". But in the Ely case, it would appear that the teenagers were aware of the police presence which may have had an influence on the way the cycle was being ridden and the route they followed, immediately prior to the fatal accident.
On the other hand, there's presumably an expectation that police take action if they see circumstances that they consider illegal, anti-social or dangerous. What a tragic irony!
S
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
Pebble
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Re: Ely riot, 2023

Post by Pebble »

Can the Police not film/photograph the offenders, visit their homes later (they will live within a mile or two, the police will know who they are) confiscate the bikes and have them crushed. At £4000 for these Sur-Ron electric motor bikes, families will soon run out of cash.

These electric bikes are becoming a major problem, me and the wife could have been killed on Tyneside at the beginning of the year when a converted mountain Bike passed us on a path at may be 40mph. It was a mountain Bike, but didn't even have pedals on, they had been removed for footrests.

And here is a one from last week, least he was on the road., but stupidly fast outside shops in a residential area. and totally illegal. This is the sort of thing that will be viewed as a "cyclists", and will have laws brought in about reg plates, insurance, mots and helmets.
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simonineaston
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Re: Ely riot, 2023

Post by simonineaston »

The cpso I spoke to referred to a range of problems policing the use this sort of vehicle - difficulties id'ing the vehicle (no index marking system), difficulties making stops, due to the guidelines leaning towards no pursuit, difficulties sanctioning users (many users won't have a licence) and difficulties protecting other road users (no requirement to have insurance cover). All-in-all, a bit of a potential mess.
S
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
Pebble
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Re: Ely riot, 2023

Post by Pebble »

Crushing is the answer, mobile crushing machines, if the bike (or in deed car or lorry) is being used illegally then it gets thrown into the crushing machine. No if's no but's it just goes into the crusher.

Problem in the UK is the looney left human rights brigade, they just love sticking two fingers up at society and protecting the criminals. The police's hands are now so tied with bureaucracy they have mostly given up, just biding their time until the big fat public sector pension kicks in.
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Paulatic
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Re: Ely riot, 2023

Post by Paulatic »

Pebble wrote: 27 May 2023, 10:13am Crushing is the answer, mobile crushing machines, if the bike (or in deed car or lorry) is being used illegally then it gets thrown into the crushing machine. No if's no but's it just goes into the crusher.

Problem in the UK is the looney left human rights brigade, they just love sticking two fingers up at society and protecting the criminals. The police's hands are now so tied with bureaucracy they have mostly given up, just biding their time until the big fat public sector pension kicks in.
Won’t they just go and steal another?
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Mike Sales
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Re: Ely riot, 2023

Post by Mike Sales »

Pebble wrote: 27 May 2023, 10:13am Crushing is the answer, mobile crushing machines, if the bike (or in deed car or lorry) is being used illegally then it gets thrown into the crushing machine. No if's no but's it just goes into the crusher.

Problem in the UK is the looney left human rights brigade, they just love sticking two fingers up at society and protecting the criminals. The police's hands are now so tied with bureaucracy they have mostly given up, just biding their time until the big fat public sector pension kicks in.
It would be great to have a big one for cars too, but in our woke society they have to tow them away and give the miscreants a chance to reclaim them. Can you imagine the 'war on the motorist' brigade heads' exploding! I do not really count that lot as looney lefties, though.
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It's the poor what gets the blame
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simonineaston
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Re: Ely riot, 2023

Post by simonineaston »

Well, if we're broading the discussion to include references to society, lawyers, human rights and the poor, shall we also consider the effect that years of government funding cutbacks have had on services like the police, trading standards, local youth services and A&E waiting times...
S
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
Pebble
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Re: Ely riot, 2023

Post by Pebble »

Paulatic wrote: 27 May 2023, 10:15am
Pebble wrote: 27 May 2023, 10:13am Crushing is the answer, mobile crushing machines, if the bike (or in deed car or lorry) is being used illegally then it gets thrown into the crushing machine. No if's no but's it just goes into the crusher.
Won’t they just go and steal another?
I suspect most are owned legally, and even if they did need to steal another, they would have to spend time and good money to convert it from 'assist' to full motor bike.

And now we have the full electric trials bikes, like the surron, capable of 50 mph. i'm sure they are sold with a sticker saying do not use in public spaces, but their is no comeback when they are

I do appreciate the 'crushing' idea is fanciful and would never happen. But these full on mini electric motorbikes, and converted electric bicycles are becoming a major problem. The police need to find away to deal with it.
Psamathe
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Re: Ely riot, 2023

Post by Psamathe »

Pebble wrote: 27 May 2023, 10:13am Crushing is the answer, mobile crushing machines, if the bike (or in deed car or lorry) is being used illegally then it gets thrown into the crushing machine. No if's no but's it just goes into the crusher.

Problem in the UK is the looney left human rights brigade, they just love sticking two fingers up at society and protecting the criminals. The police's hands are now so tied with bureaucracy they have mostly given up, just biding their time until the big fat public sector pension kicks in.
If I'm taking a "tongue in cheek" post to seriously - sorry.

Summary "sentence" by Police at the scene and the problems that causes are where this discussion started (in a thread about summary execution of dogs).

In an ordered society there needs to be due process, the accused given the opportunity to defend themselves and be cleared of punishment (e.g. a crushed eBike).

I don't know much about e-bikes but e.g. if talking about something too powerful we risk getting Police claiming "it's too powerful" and crushing the bike and accused has no opportunity to argue they were going downhill with a following wind and a completely flat battery and they are £4k out of pocket with no way to get to work. At best (for accused) taxpayers money pays out or at worst (for accused) through doing nothing wrong they are £4k out of pocket, no way to get to work, etc.

Could even get as bad as "riding erratically" because the Police Officer observing does not appreciate the number of potholes aroud these days and how one could have the rider sprawled across the road in front of oncoming lorries.

Accused/defendant must be given the opportunity to defend their actions.

Ian
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simonineaston
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Re: Ely riot, 2023

Post by simonineaston »

The police need to find away to deal with it.
Some of the challenges they face are upthread. They have to cut their coat to suit the cloth. While stat.s concerning e vehicles remain low in number, they'll receive scant attention. As reporting of incidents grows in number & severity, the category will start to receive more attention. And given the difficulties currently described, that may well have to involve either a change in legal arrangements or developing new tactics to cope, or both...
Time frame - who knows? Some years? A decade? The Ely incident might bring a sharper focus to bear on the subject, but the controversy seems to be more about the police behaviour than the use of illegal e-bikes.
S
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
ThePinkOne
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Re: Ely riot, 2023

Post by ThePinkOne »

Two lads riding a bike.

Yeah he was giving a bakkie to his mate and yeah he's not supposed to...... but back in the day when the thing a kid wanted most for their birthday was a bike, these things happened.

Stuff like this stopped because the kids didn't want bikes any more, they wanted cars. However, whether we like lekky bikes or not, they are now an "I want" thing and surely it's better the lads grow up riding a bike (which may technically have more power than legal- although so do many of the "compliant" conversions.....) than illegally using a car.

This was a 16th birthday present not stolen, no doubt the parents worked hard and saved up. Yes, Ely is a working class area- note the "working" bit. The lads were whizzing about and yes it was not technically legal to be two up, but the video clip shows them riding on the ROAD- not pavement. (Could have just as easily been doing that on a Raleigh Chopper back in the day).

And as Ian pointed out up-thread, an e-bike could be going faster than 15mph perfectly legitimately.

Perhaps it's time we had a proper conversation about e-bikes and about loosening the regulations. Fact is, we're far better off in the long term persuading folks to swap their cars for e-bikes than for electrically driven cars, and if making e-bikes "desirable" through being low-cost and a decent speed for in-town commuting (e.g. 20mph, to go with all these 20mph zones about to spring up in Wales), then we've got a better chance.

The COVID malarkey got the polis far too accustomed to having power without proper accountability. Some of those cases are still wending their way through court (and will never be heard due to lack of court time, an informed source tells me). I know the job of the polis is difficult, but making it easier by picking on the easy targets whilst ignoring the more difficult stuff isn't going to end well.

TPO
Labrat
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Re: Ely riot, 2023

Post by Labrat »

ThePinkOne wrote: 27 May 2023, 4:03pm Two lads riding a bike.

Yeah he was giving a bakkie to his mate and yeah he's not supposed to...... but back in the day when the thing a kid wanted most for their birthday was a bike, these things happened.

Stuff like this stopped because the kids didn't want bikes any more, they wanted cars. However, whether we like lekky bikes or not, they are now an "I want" thing and surely it's better the lads grow up riding a bike (which may technically have more power than legal- although so do many of the "compliant" conversions.....) than illegally using a car.

This was a 16th birthday present not stolen, no doubt the parents worked hard and saved up. Yes, Ely is a working class area- note the "working" bit. The lads were whizzing about and yes it was not technically legal to be two up, but the video clip shows them riding on the ROAD- not pavement. (Could have just as easily been doing that on a Raleigh Chopper back in the day).

And as Ian pointed out up-thread, an e-bike could be going faster than 15mph perfectly legitimately.

Perhaps it's time we had a proper conversation about e-bikes and about loosening the regulations. Fact is, we're far better off in the long term persuading folks to swap their cars for e-bikes than for electrically driven cars, and if making e-bikes "desirable" through being low-cost and a decent speed for in-town commuting (e.g. 20mph, to go with all these 20mph zones about to spring up in Wales), then we've got a better chance.

The COVID malarkey got the polis far too accustomed to having power without proper accountability. Some of those cases are still wending their way through court (and will never be heard due to lack of court time, an informed source tells me). I know the job of the polis is difficult, but making it easier by picking on the easy targets whilst ignoring the more difficult stuff isn't going to end well.

TPO

It wasn’t a ‘street legal’ ebike. It was an electric motorbike.

some might think that in choosing to give their son an illegal electric motorbike capable of 40+mph, the parents should perhaps bear a significant portion of the responsibility here.
Stevek76
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Re: Ely riot, 2023

Post by Stevek76 »

Yes it is obvious from the speed in the footage that this is a motorbike.

Regarding crushing, not really necessary. Police already have powers to seize motor vehicles driven/ridden without correct insurance. The individual then has a chance to reobtain their property from the pound by presenting the correct insurance details. This effectively means confiscation for these as you cannot obtain the necessary insurance for non road legal motor vehicles.

It's not policed more largely because it's not considered high priority by most forces in the face of limited resources and austerity driven crime rates. Nothing to do with 'woke lefty' whatever and everything to do with the consequences of 13 years of right wing economic self harm.
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