Why does nobody believe me?

DIscuss anything relating to non-standard cycles and their equipment.
Psamathe
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Re: Why does nobody believe me?

Post by Psamathe »

Stradageek wrote: 2 Jun 2023, 3:42pm The discussion continues and good points made by all. On the issue of off-road/rough road riding on a recumbent I have two observations:

Firstly, having tried it myself it is possible but a little scary, being unable to move your body weight around means that you feel, and often are, not fully in control. But providing you keep moving you generally keep upright and it's not far to fall if you stop.

However, as these guys showed https://kickasstrips.com/2013/03/off-th ... ent-bikes/ it can be done
I would assume it's more a question of appropriate models for the terrain. I doubt you'd want to take an ICE VTX of a bolder strewn off-road track - it's the wrong type of cycle just as you'd probably not want to take an ultra-light DF with 700-26 tyres. But maybe an ICE Full-Fat might be more appropriate.

Maybe if occasional off-road and ICE Adventure as a compromise.

Like with hills, inappropriate gearing will present a challenge however many wheels you've got.

Ian
Psamathe
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Re: Why does nobody believe me?

Post by Psamathe »

Nearholmer wrote: 2 Jun 2023, 5:14pm ...
- but, they are not as versatile as a conventional bike, and they cost more money, so you have to value highly the things that they do better, and lowly the things that they do worse or can’t do at all, to find them compellingly attractive.
There are a range of models to suit different requirement just as there are for DF uprights. People would probably not go hurtling down a twisty lumpy MTB track on a lightweight road racer - so when people talk about uprights handling off-road there is an implied assumption about the type of bike. But people less familiar with the similar "ranges" for bents (I'm only familiar with tadpole formats) they don't always make the same assumptions about it being a suitable model but just think about the one they've seen e.g. "won't handle off-road" well an ICE VTX wont or e.g. "slow on road" well and ICE Full-Fat will be as it's designed for different terrain.

Ian
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pjclinch
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Re: Why does nobody believe me?

Post by pjclinch »

Nearholmer wrote: 2 Jun 2023, 5:14pm
- but, they are not as versatile as a conventional bike,
First, define "conventional bike"...
Beware of thinking the generic Safety Bicycle layout is necessarily versatile: a track bike has an upright layout but it's of minimal use outside of a velodrome (no brakes, one fixed gear, uncomfortable position, doesn't carry anything bar the rider, very narrow, not very tough tyres).
Lots of folk use road racing bikes as a do-it-all, despite all sorts of things that make them poor for that, but it works for them.

Meanwhile, Ben Cooper, one of Scotland's 'bent dealers (who does far more business souping up Bromptoms and selling cargo bikes) says...
I’ll admit it right from the start – I sell the StreetMachine GTe because I believe that it is the best production recumbent bike in the world. Period. There are faster race machines, but for everyday riding, commuting, touring, off-road riding, stunt jumping (don’t ask!), and generally having fun I haven’t found anything better. If I had to limit myself to only owning one bike, the StreetMachine GTe would be it.
Now, despite owning a Streetmachine myself and considering it a benchmark tourer that I really love riding, it wouldn't be my "one to rule them all"*, but the above should indicate that while 'bents are niche that's really for reasons of historical accident rather than necessarily being practically niche by nature.

Pete.

* probably a Moulton NS Safari but with a Jones bar rather than drops, Rohloff and Gates Belt rather than a 1x12 derailleur. I don't ask for much...
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pjclinch
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Re: Why does nobody believe me?

Post by pjclinch »

One of the things against 'bents in the market is the rather odd assumption that means they're typically classed together.
With upwrongs people class by function, so we have road racers, tourers, all-terrain, cargo, urban, folder etc., but "recumbents" are set as a class themselves, and people don't really see what "recumbent" is for.

My Streetmachine is much better and more usefully classed as a "touring bike" than as a "recumbent". But people in the market for tourers wouldn't generally look at it because it's a "recumbent" so outside their shopping list.
That's a shame, as if one's touring wish list includes all-day comfort, a default view of where you're going combined with reasonable aero and handling that's not affected by full kitchen-sink-and-all loads it's quite possibly better than anything upright they might look at.

This is sometimes made worse from within the 'bent community, who'll elaborate that a 'bent can be e.g. short, long or compact-long wheelbase, and have underseat or overseat (scorpion or mantis) steering and so on, without bothering to say what the overall design is actually for.

Imagine wanting a touring bike, and selecting some random upright bike (maybe, say, a BMX) to do that because you've heard most tourers are uprights?

Pete.
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Nearholmer
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Re: Why does nobody believe me?

Post by Nearholmer »

Beware of thinking the generic Safety Bicycle layout is necessarily versatile:
It’s versatile, very.

The fact that specialist variants have been developed, optimised, mostly to win races, in particular niches, doesn’t alter the fact that an ordinary upright bike, with neutral sort of geometry and a nice wide range of gears, can tackle an immense range of different conditions.

As I said, I can see how a recumbent might be better at some things that a conventional bike, and long-distance touring may be one of those things, but unless one values those things highly, and not the things it does worse or not all, I can’t see the attraction.
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pjclinch
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Re: Why does nobody believe me?

Post by pjclinch »

Nearholmer wrote: 2 Jun 2023, 7:24pm
Beware of thinking the generic Safety Bicycle layout is necessarily versatile:
It’s versatile, very.

The fact that specialist variants have been developed, optimised, mostly to win races, in particular niches, doesn’t alter the fact that an ordinary upright bike, with neutral sort of geometry and a nice wide range of gears, can tackle an immense range of different conditions.
You can say very much the same if you do nothing more than bring the crank forwards and drop the seat and move it back a bit while giving it a back rest. Move it far enough so you don't need the sort of contrived seat where the legs have to operate either side of the support, rather than the far more normal seat idea of legs being in front of the support and you still have a very flexible general design that can tackle an immense range of conditions.

Pete.
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Nearholmer
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Re: Why does nobody believe me?

Post by Nearholmer »

I can see I’m going to upset recumbent adherents soon, so maybe I should shut up, but:

Is there any terrain or sort of route that a recumbent can be used on that a conventional upright cycle can’t?

If we separate things so that trikes are compared with trikes, and bikes with bikes, I can’t think of a single instance.
Tangled Metal
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Re: Why does nobody believe me?

Post by Tangled Metal »

I bought the SMGT because it was a good tourer which is partly why I wanted it the other part being riding a bent was a itch I needed to scratch. It became an obsession for me.

However, I have never found it anything close to being this for as much as my upright bike. My upright has done mtb trails to the level I would want to do, it's great for commuting, I've gone fully loaded touring, it's good uphill and I'm faster on it than my bent. It doesn't carry loads as well as my SMGT but it's not a tourer cable being good enough for that use. I can't really afford bikes for all uses but I will keep the bent, Brompton and my road bike. The last two get most use as they're good for the uses I have these days. Even touring I prefer the upright these days.

A bent might be found to be better for one use or another than my upright but overall my upright is better, one bike to rule means upright for me. The biggest thing for me is really the hills. My bent has a lot lower gearing than my upright but my upright rides uphill better than my bent. It's the slow speed that's possible on an upright. I stall a bit too often on hills riding my bent then struggle to start off again.
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pjclinch
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Re: Why does nobody believe me?

Post by pjclinch »

Nearholmer wrote: 2 Jun 2023, 9:13pm I can see I’m going to upset recumbent adherents soon, so maybe I should shut up, but:

Is there any terrain or sort of route that a recumbent can be used on that a conventional upright cycle can’t?

If we separate things so that trikes are compared with trikes, and bikes with bikes, I can’t think of a single instance.
My previous post about functional description really covers this. Rather than getting hung up (like the UCI do) on where the seat is relative to the bottom bracket, take any bike on its functional performance. So you can make a 'bent track bike for individual pursuit and, just like an upright endurance track bike it'll be no use at all for downhill mountain biking. The fact that a downhill MTB has the pedals and crank in similar relative positions to a Lotus 108 isn't really relevant.

I don't tour on a recumbent because it's a recumbent, I tour on it because the model I use is comfy for all day riding and takes big loads without affecting the handling. The Optima Baron, with similar layout, would be utterly useless for my job because it's designed for other jobs, just as a Pinarello Dogma is not a tourer and a Surly LHT is.

There is nothing to be gained by looking at 'bents as a functional class. Look at individual bikes that may do the job you want done, pick the one that best ticks the boxes. If that's a 'bent, take the bent. Folk don't buy e.g. carbon road bikes because if you change absolutely everything about them except the seat/crank relative position they'll be good for downhill MTB trails or doing heavy shopping, they buy them because they do the limited things the owner wants to do on them well.

They are, at the end of the day, cycles, and putting the crank in a different place relative to the seat doesn't change nearly as much as most people seem to think. It's a bit like wheel size: there are certainly terrains where (up to a point!) bigger is better, and some folk are very sniffy about small wheels because it means it's "not a proper bike" and any design using them must be inherently compromised. They probably don't realise the UCI banned them because they make drafting easier...

Pete.
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Stradageek
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Re: Why does nobody believe me?

Post by Stradageek »

Nearholmer wrote: 2 Jun 2023, 9:13pm I can see I’m going to upset recumbent adherents soon, so maybe I should shut up, but:

Is there any terrain or sort of route that a recumbent can be used on that a conventional upright cycle can’t?

If we separate things so that trikes are compared with trikes, and bikes with bikes, I can’t think of a single instance.
To me, all discussion is useful and I've no problem with a combative approach :D

I would defy the average upright rider to complete say 100 miles into a gale force headwind, much, much easier on a lowracer :wink:

The world hour record set by the best professional time trialist on the planet is 35 miles (indoor velodrome). An amateur on a recumbent has covered 57 miles!! (outdoor oval, car race track).

At the world HPV championships a few years ago, on the outdoor Betteshanger circuit which is wiggly and a bit hilly, an Austrian gent in his forties, I'd estimate, was circulating at close to 40mph for an hour.
Jdsk
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Re: Why does nobody believe me?

Post by Jdsk »

roubaixtuesday wrote: 2 Jun 2023, 6:34am ...
5. Less comfortable. Specifically I get foot cramp, which came on much sooner. Never managed to stop this, not sure why it happened and probably entirely personal to me.
...
I've had it, and it's been described by many others. It's often suggested that it's due to "circulation problems" and related to the foot being higher in relation to the body than on uprights.

I'll see if anyone has analysed it any further.

Jonathan
Nearholmer
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Re: Why does nobody believe me?

Post by Nearholmer »

I wasn’t trying to be combative, more explorative, but was concerned that some might be getting defensive. Which is probably enough ‘Ives’.

It still seems to me that the recumbent can do “some things better, but not as many things, and costs more”, leaving the choice down to which things a person does and doesn’t value, and to what extent.

Personally, I fancy a go on one, because it looks quite interesting/fun, but wouldn’t look to buy one, because I can’t for the life of me see how any of the variants could work for the sort of multi-surface cycling that is my bag.
Jdsk
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Re: Why does nobody believe me?

Post by Jdsk »

Nearholmer wrote: 3 Jun 2023, 9:07am ...
Personally, I fancy a go on one, because it looks quite interesting/fun, but wouldn’t look to buy one, because I can’t for the life of me see how any of the variants could work for the sort of multi-surface cycling that is my bag.
I'd encourage everyone to try various types of recumbent. There used to be a shop in Amsterdam where you could do that and we once had an hilarious morning trying them out before selecting four to ride up to Texel.

On their return to England two of the party bought moderately rough-stuff trikes.

Jonathan
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Re: Why does nobody believe me?

Post by Bmblbzzz »

I can see the sense in thinking in terms of function rather than design (same would apply to the things people get hung up within uprights, such as horizontal or sloping top tube), but the fact that this isn't done highlights one of the main reasons recumbents aren't more popular; I remember one event in the early 90s when an established LBS organised a recumbent event, but apart from that I've never seen a 'bent in a shop. They're ghettoised into their own network.
Grldtnr
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Re: Why does nobody believe me?

Post by Grldtnr »

Nearholmer wrote: 2 Jun 2023, 9:13pm I can see I’m going to upset recumbent adherents soon, so maybe I should shut up, but:

Is there any terrain or sort of route that a recumbent can be used on that a conventional upright cycle can’t?

If we separate things so that trikes are compared with trikes, and bikes with bikes, I can’t think of a single instance.
You will need to be proscriptive, in what your asking, there was once an incident I was grateful for being on my recumbent tadpole trike, going up hill on a twisty climb, with sheet ice across the road, I was moderately successful in making it up, got nearly to the top, but then lost all forward motion, even grabbing the front wheels to 'wheelchair' myself up failed, the trike pirouetted then slid back down backwards, into the following peloton, I doubt they would have been anymore able than I was to cross that wet ice, but I did manage to regain control and climb on with out dismounting, the others looking daggers of course! :mrgreen:
A laid back, low down, layabout recumbent triker!
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