Why does nobody believe me?

DIscuss anything relating to non-standard cycles and their equipment.
Nearholmer
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Re: Why does nobody believe me?

Post by Nearholmer »

I thought about trikes on sheet ice. Maybe some sort of time trial between upright and recumbent trikes in such conditions might settle whether one can do something the other can’t.

But, I don’t think I need to be proscriptive, or prescriptive, because it’s an open question.
Psamathe
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Re: Why does nobody believe me?

Post by Psamathe »

@Nearholmer If you are interested in upright/recumbent trike comparisons there is a youtube channel https://www.youtube.com/@bikestrikesrazors/videos where the "authors" do quite a few comparisons road/tadpole bent. Mainly road/speed/climbing (though it's not exclusively comparisons, other videos so scan through)

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Re: Why does nobody believe me?

Post by pjclinch »

Nearholmer wrote: 3 Jun 2023, 9:07am
It still seems to me that the recumbent can do “some things better, but not as many things, and costs more”, leaving the choice down to which things a person does and doesn’t value, and to what extent.
Again, this isn't down to "recumbent" but the specific features of a given cycle you're looking at. Just because an upright design is probably a better starting point for a downhill MTB or a freestyle BMX doesn't make a Lotus 108 useful outside of a velodrome (and the Lotus would set you back more than just about any 'bent too...)
Nearholmer wrote: 3 Jun 2023, 9:07am Personally, I fancy a go on one, because it looks quite interesting/fun, but wouldn’t look to buy one, because I can’t for the life of me see how any of the variants could work for the sort of multi-surface cycling that is my bag.
And that makes perfect sense.
What the thread started off with was bemusement that people will dismiss 'bents on unfounded assumptions like "but it's dangerous!" rather than, "well, this doesn't really do what I want". And trying some out will give you a much better idea of what they can actually do than just assuming it can't.

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Nearholmer
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Re: Why does nobody believe me?

Post by Nearholmer »

I’m not assuming.

I’ve been trying to rationalise it through, in fact I went to the extent of mentally re-running my last few rides on each of a recumbent two-wheeler and a recumbent trike, which is possibly a tad obsessive, and I couldn’t have done any of those rides on either of those two sorts of machine. It would have got tangled-up in various tight obstructions, deposited me in the canal, got stuck on a sandy single-track climb, or a number of other things.

All this business about comparison with specialist types of upright is a red-herring, because a fairly boringly middle of the road upright, a typical basic hybrid for £500 or, as I favour, a conservatively-shaped drop-bar steel bike, can do things and go places that a recumbent can’t feasibly.

As I keep saying, I can quite understand that a recumbent can do some things better than an upright, but it simply can’t do all the things a very basic, not super-specialised upright can do, and it costs a lot more. If you value highly the things it can do better, and not the things it can’t do, fine, enjoy it, but consider the possibility that the reason why they aren’t the first choice of cyclists everywhere might not be prejudice, but what I’ve just said.
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Re: Why does nobody believe me?

Post by pjclinch »

Nearholmer wrote: 3 Jun 2023, 3:52pm I’m not assuming.

I’ve been trying to rationalise it through, in fact I went to the extent of mentally re-running my last few rides on each of a recumbent two-wheeler and a recumbent trike, which is possibly a tad obsessive, and I couldn’t have done any of those rides on either of those two sorts of machine.
If you've never ridden any examples, never mind those better suited to off-road, you have to be assuming.
Nearholmer wrote: 3 Jun 2023, 3:52pm All this business about comparison with specialist types of upright is a red-herring, because a fairly boringly middle of the road upright, a typical basic hybrid for £500 or, as I favour, a conservatively-shaped drop-bar steel bike, can do things and go places that a recumbent can’t feasibly.
But how do you know that when you've never ridden one?
Nearholmer wrote: 3 Jun 2023, 3:52pm As I keep saying, I can quite understand that a recumbent can do some things better than an upright, but it simply can’t do all the things a very basic, not super-specialised upright can do and it costs a lot more. If you value highly the things it can do better, and not the things it can’t do, fine, enjoy it, but consider the possibility that the reason why they aren’t the first choice of cyclists everywhere might not be prejudice, but what I’ve just said.
If you actually try a few you'd know that the general ability of a lot of 'bent designs is vastly greater than you're assuming. Until you have, you're just working on assumptions rather than actual evidence.

They're not first choice simply because they're not even on the radar of most. But of those who are aware of them, writing them off as "dangerous" or "obviously" stranded on perfect surfaces without actual evidence beyond assumption and hearsay is jumping to an unnecessary conclusion. Why do that all?

Simple test on an upright of "can you do this on a 'bent?" Ride it in the saddle. There's not that much that actually needs one to be out of it.

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Nearholmer
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Re: Why does nobody believe me?

Post by Nearholmer »

If you've never ridden any examples, never mind those better suited to off-road, you have to be assuming.
Where does “assuming” end, and using the powers of reasoning nature gave me begin? Because, what I’m doing is the latter, and not the former.

I’ve seen recumbents, I’ve looked at films of recumbents in use, I’ve looked at pictures of recumbents, I’m a lifelong cyclist, and a chartered engineer …… I can look at a machine and form a fair working judgement as to where it will and won’t be able to go.

But yes, I’d love to have a go on one, just for the experience. If someone in MK has one they’d be prepared to let me have a crack at, I’m well up for it. There’s a chap locally who has an electric one, or at least heavily electrically assisted, a bit like a pedelec Morgan Three Wheeler, and if he’s a member here I’d especially like a go on that one, because it’s a right racer for apparently minimal effort, but I sure as heck wouldn’t take it along the canal towpath.
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pjclinch
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Re: Why does nobody believe me?

Post by pjclinch »

Nearholmer wrote: 3 Jun 2023, 6:07pm
If you've never ridden any examples, never mind those better suited to off-road, you have to be assuming.
Where does “assuming” end, and using the powers of reasoning nature gave me begin? Because, what I’m doing is the latter, and not the former.

I’ve seen recumbents, I’ve looked at films of recumbents in use, I’ve looked at pictures of recumbents, I’m a lifelong cyclist, and a chartered engineer …… I can look at a machine and form a fair working judgement as to where it will and won’t be able to go.
Despite all of that you said higher up the thread:
My perception is that recumbents really only work on fairly smooth surfaces, fairly sensible gradients, and places where turning space is reasonably generous ….,.,, roads and top-quality paths essentially
And I know from practical experience that that's just plain wrong, and I'm neither particularly talented nor especially adventurous.

So until you actually get some riding experience, based on your hunches being demonstrably wrong this far, you're not doing yourself any favours assuming you can reliably guess what they can do.
Nearholmer wrote: 3 Jun 2023, 6:07pm But yes, I’d love to have a go on one just for the experience. If someone in MK has one they’d be prepared to let me have a crack at, I’m well up for it. There’s a chap locally who has an electric one, or at least heavily electrically assisted, a bit like a pedelec Morgan Three Wheeler, and if he’s a member here I’d especially like a go on that one, because it’s a right racer for apparently minimal effort, but I sure as heck wouldn’t take it along the canal towpath.
Again, don't assume "a go on one" necessarily tells you much. Imagine if 'bents and uprights swapped places in the general scheme of things and you decided to have a go on "an upright" to see what they could do. And that upright was a Lotus 108... What would you usefully conclude about uprights, bar being slower and less comfortable for a 4k individual pursuit?

My wife and I rode miles along towpaths on last year's summer tour (Falkirk to Glasgow, with full camping luggage). We didn't go swimming. They steer much like an upright.

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Nearholmer
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Re: Why does nobody believe me?

Post by Nearholmer »

Despite all of that you said higher up the thread:
I did, and if you are interested enough to read everything I’ve said in this thread, you’ll see that my perceptions have been modified. I’ve listened to what people have said, looked at what they’ve linked to, and learned. I now know more that I did a couple of days ago, and I’m open to learning more by having a go on one, although if I’m to believe you that won’t tell me much, so how I’m supposed to further my learning I’m now not sure.

But, what I haven’t learned, because apparently nobody can suggest a meaningful instance, is where I could cycle on a recumbent that I can’t cycle on a basic bike costing £500 from Halfords, while it is patently obvious that the £500 bike can take me places a recumbent couldn’t.

As to tow paths: they vary by place and season, and I await with interest a demonstration of cycling on a recumbent along the one here, especially in winter, and especially where is gets very narrow and twisty under bridges.

Maybe the way to settle all this is to organise some sort of trial, between an experienced recumbentist and an experienced cyclist on the £500 bike from Halfords, ideally picking riders of similar age and fitness to allow focus mainly on the machines. Not a time trial, but a terrain trial. It would inform, educate, and certainly entertain.
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Re: Why does nobody believe me?

Post by Stradageek »

The argument seems to have got a bit stuck. What's important to me is not what a recumbent can do that an upright can't but how much better a recumbent can do what I like doing.
Nearholmer
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Re: Why does nobody believe me?

Post by Nearholmer »

Which makes perfect sense to me.
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Re: Why does nobody believe me?

Post by pjclinch »

Nearholmer wrote: 3 Jun 2023, 9:03pm
Despite all of that you said higher up the thread:
I did, and if you are interested enough to read everything I’ve said in this thread, you’ll see that my perceptions have been modified. I’ve listened to what people have said, looked at what they’ve linked to, and learned. I now know more that I did a couple of days ago, and I’m open to learning more by having a go on one, although if I’m to believe you that won’t tell me much, so how I’m supposed to further my learning I’m now not sure.
You've learned theory but not experience, and your original theory was based on... seeing recumbents, looking at films of recumbents in use, looking at pictures of recumbents, being a lifelong cyclist, and a chartered engineer. If you take that, which wasn't enough, and add a couple of days of online conversations, that doesn't necessarily give you as much as you might like to come up with sure-fire knowledge.

When I say trying one won't tell you that much the key word is not try but one. How does an "upright" behave? If you try one it'll be a data point, and it might be quite representative but it may not. If your single sample is, say, a Creswell Micro you'd get a totally different notion of steering than if it was an omafiets. If it was, say, a Bickerton you'd get a vert different idea of its off-road suitability than if it was a full-sus XC MTB. If it was a Lotus 108 you'd get a very different idea about comfort and adjustability than if it was a Moulton NS. And so on. This comes back to my point that "recumbent" is not actually a very useful descriptor and doesn't tell you much about what any given cycle will do, probably even more so than "upright" because there haven't been decades of standardisation: road bikes may not be representative of all uprights, but they're pretty interchangeable amongst themselves thanks to UCI rules. A Streetmachine is a very, very different beast from a Nocom. Neither have much in common with a BikeE, and so on.
Nearholmer wrote: 3 Jun 2023, 9:03pm
Despite all of that you said higher up the thread:
But, what I haven’t learned, because apparently nobody can suggest a meaningful instance, is where I could cycle on a recumbent that I can’t cycle on a basic bike costing £500 from Halfords, while it is patently obvious that the £500 bike can take me places a recumbent couldn’t.
In my case it's very simple. My Streetmachine will let me ride a route over ~50 miles in the seat where I want to be comfortable at the end of it and still having fun, and a £500 basic upright won't. It's about fun, not basic "can it be done", and in my case it's not what the terrain is, but how much of it I'm riding in one go. And yes, I know there's folk that can ride 200 miles day in, day out on drops in a crouch, but I'm not one of them.

As regards terrain, it's not as simple as you make out. Give Nino Schurter a basic £500 Halfords bike and he'll be able to black runs at MTB trail centres, but that's becuase Nino Schurter, not because basic £500 bike, and I'd get scared rigid on a professional grade bike.
Nearholmer wrote: 3 Jun 2023, 9:03pm As to tow paths: they vary by place and season, and I await with interest a demonstration of cycling on a recumbent along the one here, especially in winter, and especially where is gets very narrow and twisty under bridges.
Again this is a bizarre generic assumption that just because the crank is in front of the seat the steering must be pants. Why do you think that? Why do you think designs where putting a foot down is fundamentally easier than an upright mean you're more likely to end up in a canal? It's just an assumption pulled out of the air. Sure, I wouldn't want to ride a Veolkraft Nocom along a twisty towpath but that's not because it's "a recumbent" but because it's radical design is about going very fast around racetracks. A compact LWB like an HPVel Spirit is really just as manoeuvrable as your magic £500 Halfords hybrid.
Nearholmer wrote: 3 Jun 2023, 9:03pm Maybe the way to settle all this is to organise some sort of trial, between an experienced recumbentist and an experienced cyclist on the £500 bike from Halfords, ideally picking riders of similar age and fitness to allow focus mainly on the machines. Not a time trial, but a terrain trial. It would inform, educate, and certainly entertain.
Get yourself to a demo dealer, borrow a selection and try them out on the terrain you want to ride on. For predominantly off-road touring in Scotland I would personally not take any of the 'bents I've used over something like a flat-bar gravel bike, but had I had very strange ideas that 'bents are fundamentally hard to steer well because the crank is in front of the seat I'd have those ideas well and truly flushed.

The key takeaway I'm trying to get over is you treat individual models as distinct things with their own capabilities. That any given cycle is, or isn't, a 'bent or an upright is actually a lot less important than people assume. It's the individual design decisions and implementation that make a bike. So if we're riding a twisty towpath we're probably better off on a compact LWB 'bent like a BikeE than we are on, say, a pro-peloton TT bike. That one is a 'bent and the other is an upright doesn't come in to it.

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Nearholmer
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Re: Why does nobody believe me?

Post by Nearholmer »

For predominantly off-road touring in Scotland I would personally not take any of the 'bents I've used over something like a flat-bar gravel bike
That, together with your previous point that a recumbent can do pretty much only what one can do sitting down on an upright, is sort of the point I’m making. The recumbent (recumbent family to make clear that I’m not talking about just one design) is less versatile than a basic upright. Better at some things yes, but less versatile overall.

For clarity, my contention that the recumbents would struggle with twisty, tight etc isn’t about steering mainly, although that comes into it because of the inability to stand-up and wiggle the bike about under you, it’s about different things: a lot of them seem to be either very long, or in the case of the trikes, very wide, and/or to have really small wheels, inviting trouble on a combination of rough and twisty.

Here’s the £500 bike from Halfords for comparison. Whether it falls into the class “flat bar gravel bike” could probably occupy another long debate:

https://www.halfords.com/bikes/hybrid-b ... gKN4fD_BwE

And, here’s a £400 bike from Evans that could enter the trial too. This one I know functions as a flat bar gravel bike, because I bought one as a shopping bike, but have used it off-road a few times over reasonable distances:

https://www.evanscycles.com/pinnacle-li ... e=93917302
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Re: Why does nobody believe me?

Post by pjclinch »

Nearholmer wrote: 4 Jun 2023, 7:39am
That, together with your previous point that a recumbent can do pretty much only what one can do sitting down on an upright, is sort of the point I’m making. The recumbent (recumbent family to make clear that I’m not talking about just one design) is less versatile than a basic upright. Better at some things yes, but less versatile overall.
And? I just took my Moulton on a campervan holiday because it's very versatile and we did a different sort of ride every day for two weeks, but I have several other bikes because when "more versatile" isn't actually a key point they work better in their particular niche. Use the best tool for the job, rather than worry about where the crank is relative to the seat, or what other jobs you're not doing but could.
My Swiss Army Knife is a lot more versatile than a standard cutlery knife. But I eat with a standard cutlery knife.
Nearholmer wrote: 4 Jun 2023, 7:39am For clarity, my contention that the recumbents would struggle with twisty, tight etc isn’t about steering mainly, although that comes into it because of the inability to stand-up and wiggle the bike about under you, it’s about different things: a lot of them seem to be either very long, or in the case of the trikes, very wide, and/or to have really small wheels, inviting trouble on a combination of rough and twisty.
There really isn't that much riding outside of technical trails or trick riding that needs getting out of the saddle, especially if you've got some suspension. That lots of people do stand up a lot isn't the same as needing to.
Small wheels make a bike more manoeuvrable, not less! Big wheels cope better riding over big lumps (and I mean big, not stuff you get on a towpath), but smaller wheels typically make a bike easier to steer (part of why I like the Moulton).

The thread started with Stradageek bemused by non-sequitur reasoning to dismiss 'bents out of hand, e.g. "they're dangerous!" (and the same people have no problems about carbon TT bikes which encourage a riding position where they can't even see where they're going!). On the other hand, "I've got £500, storage for one bike I have to carry up two flights of stairs and I need to use it to commute through heavy traffic and ride through the woods on weekends" isn't a non-sequitur reason for not considering 'bent option, it's a pretty convincing one.

I'm fully onside with a £500 hybrid being a great value "do most stuff okay" choice for someone looking for one bike to do lots of stuff with £500 to spend. But I have more than £500 pounds and I already have a Moulton that does most stuff okay so that's a bit of a moot point from my point of view.
The existence of cheap versatile general purpose hybrids is no more an issue for the usefulness of recumbent bikes as it is for, say, carbon TT bikes. You can't ride those off-road worth a damn, they're crap for shopping and touring, they're uncomfortable and awkward to control, even to see where you're going, and they cost a fortune. But if you like riding TTs as fast as possible to UCI rules they can't be beat. If you're not fussed about the UCI rules bit, you can go faster with a better view and less backache on a suitable 'bent.

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Re: Why does nobody believe me?

Post by UpWrong »

I rode 44 miles of mixed terrain on my LWB 8 foot long recumbent the other weekend. Road, gravel paths and green paths. Had a great time. They are more manoeuvrable than you might expect. Take a look at this:
Nearholmer
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Re: Why does nobody believe me?

Post by Nearholmer »

Pete

I suspect that at the root we might be “loudly agreeing” about much of this.

My point about the versatility of a basic upright began as a counter to the apparent contention that most people don’t use recumbents because they are closed-minded and dismissive, whereas I tend to think that recumbents remain a bit niche because they aren’t as versatile. That probably creates a sort of vicious circle, whereby because they aren’t seen much, people are ignorant of their existence, starter-cyclists don’t even think of them as an option, which limits sales, which keeps prices relatively high, which keeps them out of mainstream bike shops etc.

Anyway, I still fancy a go on one out of curiosity.

Kevin
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