Why does nobody believe me?

[Tangled Metal]

I once looked at upright touring bikes. £1100 seemed to be the starting point for decent spec. I bought a 20 yo recumbent tank for £500 instead. SMGT steel framed, mostly original spec and good condition I thought. I wonder what I'd pay for a 20 yo, steel framed, decent spec and condition upright tourer back then?

[UpWrong]

The owner from new doesn't know the GTe is when the frame material switched from steel to aluminium. Or at least before i got my gt i read that was the biggest change between gt and GTe. I never trust ebay entries that don't get such details right. Is that fair?

No, not in this case. eBay doesn't prompt or guide sellers beyond a narrative description and some headline details which probably doesn't include the frame material.

[Tangled Metal]

Our work ebay you can write your own description and ignore the prefilled drop down box options. Perhaps the seller doesn't know that.

[pjclinch]

I'm fully onside with a £500 hybrid being a great value "do most stuff okay" choice for someone looking for one bike to do lots of stuff with £500 to spend.

So what would you recommend as £500 "do most stuff okay" recumbent? Okay, we might have to compromise on the £500, but a reasonably affordable recumbent that can do most stuff?

There's no such thing right now, because there's no mass market (see above for Vicious Circle of why 'bents aren't more popular). It's a bit like anything niche, if it's niche there's no point in cutting corners, so if you're after, say, a dedicated TT bike the bargain end of the market just isn't there outside of second hand. Every now and then someone moderately mainstream makes a 'bent, so there's been ones from Batavus and Dawes, Giant did a semi-bent at one point, but they don't sell so after a season or too they get dropped. That's about marketing, supply and demand, not about the bikes.

My first one was an ex-dem from a closing down bike shop, an Orbit Crystal (clone of the Speed Ross, not wholly dissimilar in general concept to a Bachetta Corsa) and at £250 in the late 90s was cheap enough to have a go, especially as the owner was happy to let me try it out for as long as I wanted before parting with the money and it was less than 20 miles away.

I've lent out mine as a dem machine a few times over the years, often to long-time cyclists who've had something change that meant they couldn't ride their old bikes happily any more.
If you want a go then find someone with one, go along to a BHPC meet or get a demo bike from one of few dealers that stock them. And try as many as you can, because assuming that one is obviously like another could be a bit like assuming a Bickerton is just like a Lotus 108 "because they're both uprights".

Pete.

[pjclinch]

What is it about oss vs uss that might make them more comfortable?

Might as well ask what is about USS that makes it uncomfortable for you...
I really can't come up with a reason why it might be for myself, but obviously your nervous system is telling you different things from my thought experiments!

You've just got to try it.

My first 'bent had OSS, never really had any comfort problems but you do have to hold your arms up so that's why I prefer USS myself (plus they're easier on and off and you don't have a view of bar). But as you don't need much input you can ride one handed most of the time rather than keep both on the bars.

Here's my Orbit Crystal back in the day (so long ago I was really keen on lids and hi-viz for all riding!)


Pete.

[yostumpy]

The only negative of USS for me, is the lack of a cockpit, ie somewhere to mount a route sheet or Sat nav for Audax type stuff.

[yostumpy]

from your friendly local recumbent shop?

[pjclinch]

The only negative of USS for me, is the lack of a cockpit, ie somewhere to mount a route sheet or Sat nav for Audax type stuff.

I'd guess it's implementation dependent, but on the Streetmachine it does limit the steering lock so a U-turn in a narrow street is generally best accomplished by just standing up and turning the bike under you.

Pete.

[pjclinch]

Edit: Just found a price list for the Streetmachine GTE and it starts from €3,290.

Mine was about £1700 ~ 20 years ago. More than I'd have been able to afford, but the prang that destroyed my Orbit Crystal involved a fair bit of an insurance payout so I figured I'd have a Dream Bike to make up for two weeks of concussion fog and a badly whacked knee. Without that I'd have been limited to second hand (as the Crystal was)

Pete.

[Bmblbzzz]

I'm fully onside with a £500 hybrid being a great value "do most stuff okay" choice for someone looking for one bike to do lots of stuff with £500 to spend.

So what would you recommend as £500 "do most stuff okay" recumbent? Okay, we might have to compromise on the £500, but a reasonably affordable recumbent that can do most stuff?

There's no such thing right now, because there's no mass market (see above for Vicious Circle of why 'bents aren't more popular). It's a bit like anything niche, if it's niche there's no point in cutting corners, so if you're after, say, a dedicated TT bike the bargain end of the market just isn't there outside of second hand. Every now and then someone moderately mainstream makes a 'bent, so there's been ones from Batavus and Dawes, Giant did a semi-bent at one point, but they don't sell so after a season or too they get dropped. That's about marketing, supply and demand, not about the bikes.

Yes, but it's also probably one of the biggest reasons why they're locked in a niche. They're locked in a niche because no one's managed to break out of it, because they're niche. As you say, a vicious circle – but it does mean that "can't afford one" is by and large a valid reason.

If you want a go then find someone with one, go along to a BHPC meet or get a demo bike from one of few dealers that stock them. And try as many as you can, because assuming that one is obviously like another could be a bit like assuming a Bickerton is just like a Lotus 108 "because they're both uprights".

Pete.

Hang on! I've taken part in a BHPC race, when there happened to be one local to me – finished 6th out of 16 in the 'slow' class, which was far better than I'd have expected given I'd never raced of any sort before (and that my bike was not only upright but so far from being a race bike that it still had mudguards, dynamo lighting, etc) – most of those machines are the recumbent equivalent of the Lotus! In the fast class, at least half aren't even road-legal (or at any rate would be very difficult to ride on the road, like riding a track bike etc).

In fact, the only people who'd ridden to the race were two other local riders (one so local she went home for lunch), also on uprights. And as an aside, the three of us represented a good spread of attitude/ability: one toddled round at the back, on a hybrid, with minimal effort but clearly having a good time; one, put in the slow class due to it being his first BHPC race, absolutely smashed it, winning both rounds with times that would put him in the middle of the fast class; and there was me in the middle.

So a BHPC meet IMO is a good place to see and try a variety of machines (including upright trikes and handcycles) and is great fun, but not a place to find a "recumbent hybrid". (Yes, possibly the one I attended was unusual, but I don't think so, from having poked around the website and speaking to people there.)

[Bmblbzzz]

Edit: Just found a price list for the Streetmachine GTE and it starts from €3,290.

Mine was about £1700 ~ 20 years ago. More than I'd have been able to afford, but the prang that destroyed my Orbit Crystal involved a fair bit of an insurance payout so I figured I'd have a Dream Bike to make up for two weeks of concussion fog and a badly whacked knee. Without that I'd have been limited to second hand (as the Crystal was)

Pete.

Ouch! Is "Orbit Crystal" from Orbit the now-defunct (I think) makers of uprights, known for tandems? Or is that just a coincidence of name?

[pjclinch]

Edit: Just found a price list for the Streetmachine GTE and it starts from €3,290.

Mine was about £1700 ~ 20 years ago. More than I'd have been able to afford, but the prang that destroyed my Orbit Crystal involved a fair bit of an insurance payout so I figured I'd have a Dream Bike to make up for two weeks of concussion fog and a badly whacked knee. Without that I'd have been limited to second hand (as the Crystal was)

Pete.

Ouch! Is "Orbit Crystal" from Orbit the now-defunct (I think) makers of uprights, known for tandems? Or is that just a coincidence of name?

The very same.
The Speed Ross was a fast, (relatively) light 'bent design from the same chap (Peter Ross) who designed the forerunner of what became the ICE trike range. As he was a one-man-band there weren't many made but Orbit liked it and did a licensed clone, the Crystal ("Crystal Engineering" were involved in some part of this, maybe it was Ross's firm? I can't remember).
Mesh seat, no suspension, short wheelbase, over-seat steering, 700c rear 406 (20") front. Went like a rocket, and encouraged going very fast. I was very surprised when I tried the Streetmachine that that encouraged sedate trundling (unless you were going downhill!)

Pete.

[pjclinch]

"The recumbent hybrid"...

Up-thread Nearholmer suggested the idea that an upright is inherently more flexible than a 'bent, and I countered with my suggestion that it's implementation dependant, e.g. a carbon TT bike is upright but it sure ain't flexible (and I'm not just talking about how stiff the frame is).
However, despite that I would concede that if you went out to make a bike that was as flexible as possible as a primary design goal it would quite probably be an upright.

There again, while an upright hybrid is a remarkable do-everything-okayish machine, I'd guess most of the owners don't take them anywhere near their full potential. Considering they're at heart not far off a mid-90s MTB with slick tyres it's not surprising you can do pretty serious off-road on them, especially if you change the tyres! But most of them stay on routes where a recumbent would be no problem at all.

So, what is a good 'bent as a general purpose do-most-things-okayish steed? I'd suggest a Compact LWB like the (now discontinued) HPVel Spirit, the BikeE range, the OkeJa and so on (a friend with an OkeJa uses it for anything aside from Brompton work, he goes off-road but not in to formal MTB territory).
These are easier to get the hang of than the more laid-back machines (riding position is much like a typical car driving position), more immediately comfortable (over several hours more supported surface area is better, but for a 30 minute commute it's generally a moot point) and have similar manoeuvrability to an upright hybrid. No, you can't get out of the seat, but there aren't that many times on an upright hybrid where staying in the saddle is a deal breaker.

But £500? Not a chance, because you need a mass market for that. And unless you've lots of spare money then the likely price tag will be a big put-off. I was willing to spend a lot on my touring 'bent as it significantly adds to my touring pleasure. But would a Spirit add significantly to my general purpose hack-around-town pleasure, with few rides of more than an hour? Probably not, to be honest.

Pete.

[a.twiddler]

I tried a SMGT for size recently but was defeated by the seat height. As I recall, the SMGT has a direct USS system which while being simple, doesnt't allow for any adjustment unless there's room to change the stem for something longer, or maybe shorter, to fine tune for reach, which would also change the "feel" of the steering. This would certainly be cheaper than changing to an ASS system. I gather that it was originally sold with above seat steering, and the USS was one of the many options? Or maybe vice versa. I have a Sinner delta trike which has a fixed seat and similar fixed USS pivot though that does have indirect steering. Fortunately that fits me fine.

It has been mentioned that it's about the implementation, not that USS itself is a problem for most riders who have learned to use it. I don't have a vast knowledge or history of recumbents. I took for granted that "all" recumbents would have the wide range of adjustability that my first one, the venerable Linear, has. The seat adjusts, the USS handlebar pivot block adjusts back and forth, even the BB can be moved if necessary. A small amount of adjustment of the USS mounting relative to the seat makes a lot of difference. I like the USS a lot, even though fitting various gizmos that would normally fit on handlebars calls for some ingenuity. I can manage above seat steering, too, though there's a variety of designs. I recently acquired a HPV Spirit due to its adjustability for shorter persons. Above seat steering only, and all the adjustment is in the seat. I'm still evaluating that one.

"Your friendly neighbourhood recumbent dealer". Well, talk about laugh. I nearly started. Local BHPC race meetings. That too. Certainly for me, it's a fair old trek to anywhere like that. I would certainly never be in a position to buy a new recumbent unless I had local dealer support and facilities for extensive test rides. I am grateful to the well heeled dilettantes who were able to buy new in the past and allow me to buy recumbents that have trickled down through various owners until they were affordable by me. You end up being your own expert, it seems, and learn to make the best of what you've got by dealing with issues as they arise. I think I've got value for money for the most part.

Perhaps I'm just fortunate. I never thought, while getting the Linear back on the road, and during the steep learning hill that I had to climb while mastering it, that "this wasn't for me". I had the evangelistic zeal of the newly converted for a while but now accept that most cyclists see life on two wheels differently from me. I'm pretty self contained anyway. The conventional diamond frame does what they want it to do, perhaps it fits in with their club cycling life. I still have my diamond framed tourer, as it has its uses for getting about anonymously but the recumbent(s) are what I use for longer trips. It's what suits me.

[UpWrong]

Sadly, european recumbent bicycle production consists of HPVelo and AZUB. And the former have their frames made in Taiwan. HPV have one UK dealer (in Scotland) and AZUB have two UK dealers (one also in Scotland). Three of my bikes came from the USA as framesets.