Europe: Flying or not?

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Galactic
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Re: Europe: Flying or not?

Post by Galactic »

mattheus wrote: 2 Jun 2023, 9:08am As evident as realising I cannot easily buy my dream harbour-view trackside apartment in Monaco ... or CAN I??
But it's even harder than that. We can dream of an apartment in Monaco, and that's ok, it doesn't hurt. But our neighbours, our colleagues and our friends are all flying off to NZ, Canada, Sweden, such behaviour is normalised, and we make life harder for ourselves if we refuse to be the same. That all makes it a million times more difficult to say no to ourselves, particularly when, as pointed out above, little we do as individuals will make any measurable difference.

Nevertheless, since the necessary change at a societal level isn't being organised by those responsible (ie the elected governments), it falls to us as individuals to do the work, no matter how puny our efforts often seem.
slowster
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Re: Europe: Flying or not?

Post by slowster »

PH wrote: 1 Jun 2023, 9:53pm I read some analysis, possibly in George Monbiot's book, which demonstrated there was no feasible business model that supported infrequent flights, it's a bit all or nothing.
And the sooner it is possible to predict when it will become 'nothing', the sooner there will be investment in infrastructure and businesses to provide alternatives by that time.
PH wrote: 1 Jun 2023, 9:53pm Cost of aircraft and infrastructure is such that it needs the volume to support it
Thus travelling by air for a holiday is harmful not only just in terms of the carbon emitted by that one flight, it directly contributes to keeping flying commercially viable, which delays investment in alternatives.

For offsetting or giving money to environmental causes not to be greenwash, it needs to be at a level which fully compensates not only for the carbon produced by the individual flight, but also fully compensates for its contribution in perpetuating air travel and delaying the investment in alternatives.
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mjr
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Re: Europe: Flying or not?

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MrsHJ wrote: 1 Jun 2023, 8:13pm I’d probably fly that route too (I’m well aware of the extra faff getting to a lot of places from the south west). I’m trying to limit myself to one return flight a year- this year it might be none.

Offsetting is an option and I like your donations approach too. I actually quite like doing the train and accepting a bit more time if it’s easy and relaxing- 8 changes isn’t. However I do hope things are improving with various new sleeper services so it may be watch this space.
Faff is a good word to describe the problem. Uncertainty is another: each of those 8 changes risks getting a train already full of bikes and either an unhelpful guard or, if unreservable, nothing they can really do if it's full anyway. I don't mind risking it for a change or two a day, but more than that seems like too much risk of being delayed and possibly running out of trains to use that day.

I'm currently looking at booking things for later this summer but it would be 4 changes in one day and one in the middle (Luxembourg-Metz TER) has conflicting information about whether bikes can go on all services or only one a day. SNCF's booking site says one a day, while TER Grand-Est, FUB (a French CUK), Visit Luxembourg and others say all trains do and videos make it look like all trains on the route have space (hang up by a wheel, but not in a cupboard), but SNCF operate the trains, so who knows?

I'd put the bikes in the car, drive somewhere and do a loop but fitting two bikes in our small car isn't straightforward and hiring seems to be expensive to go abroad, even ignoring the well-discussed-elsewhere grey areas about import/export.

It stinks that flying the bikes out looks so much easier and cheaper!
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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MrsHJ
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Re: Europe: Flying or not?

Post by MrsHJ »

I went on the Metz/Luxembourg TER service last September and it seemed fine for bikes- it was a Sunday morning though. I didn’t understand how to pay for it- as trains are free in Luxembourg you only pay to the border so you need to know the border stations.
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Re: Europe: Flying or not?

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MrsHJ wrote: 2 Jun 2023, 1:24pm I went on the Metz/Luxembourg TER service last September and it seemed fine for bikes- it was a Sunday morning though. I didn’t understand how to pay for it- as trains are free in Luxembourg you only pay to the border so you need to know the border stations.
Thanks. Did you have a bike with you and was it the 0740ish service (train number would be excellent, if you have it) or a later one, can you remember? I think the border station is Bettembourg.

But still, faffy faff faff faff.
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Re: Europe: Flying or not?

Post by Vorpal »

ChrisF wrote: 1 Jun 2023, 3:27pm I know there have been several threads on this subject but I'd like to approach it from a slightly different (maybe?) angle.

I was thinking about doing a cycle-camping tour in Sweden this summer, so I looked for previous threads on Sweden and found this oneviewtopic.php?t=153748&hilit=sweden . The responses were more about flying vs. trains/ferry than about Sweden itself. There seems to be plenty of us cyclists who won't fly because of environmental concerns. Anyway, as a result of this thread I looked into the 'overland' route: according to Seat61, I could get from London to Copenhagen (which is a short hop to Sweden) in not much more than 24 hours, with a hotel stopover in Brussels. But that's without a bike. I can't take a bike on Eurostar, and to go on German ICE trains a bike needs to be boxed. Long story short, to get from Cornwall to Copenhagen by rail / ferry I think would take at least 3 days, two overnight stops and eight changes. Cost would be getting on for £300 each way (including hotel costs and rail/ station food etc).
A bike in a box is just luggage for most rail services. On Eurostar, you can take a boxed bike as far as Paris or Brussels, which should be enough, as you can change to other services for whichever route you take onward.

You have to box a bike to take it on a plane, anyways.
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MrsHJ
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Re: Europe: Flying or not?

Post by MrsHJ »

@mjr: I can’t remember which (I bought a physical ticket instead of using my SNCF app) but around 7:30/8:00 and I think it was a Sunday morning. It had a largish bike section that had fold back seats- it took 6 bikes I think. I’ll find a photo. It was just me and a mountain biker so we didn’t bother hanging our bikes up. The general rule in France seems to be that if a TER takes bikes you just pile on. Could be tricky though if it doesn’t take bikes and it’s commuter hour or it doesn’t take bikes because it’s commuter hours- might be worth googling to see if that’s a thing for the region grand est.

Looking in the app now I think it shows the services with bike capacity and there isn’t a 7:30 one. Depends which day (is weekend or weekday). I would probably avoid the commuter hour trains- I’d guess they’d be busy anyway.

Agreed about Battenberg.
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mjr
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Re: Europe: Flying or not?

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Vorpal wrote: 2 Jun 2023, 1:40pm
ChrisF wrote: 1 Jun 2023, 3:27pm [...] I can't take a bike on Eurostar, [...]
A bike in a box is just luggage for most rail services. On Eurostar, you can take a boxed bike as far as Paris or Brussels, which should be enough, as you can change to other services for whichever route you take onward.
The Brussels service only restarted yesterday according to https://www.cyclinguk.org/article/euros ... e-brussels but https://help.eurostar.com/faq/uk-en/que ... n-Eurostar doesn't mention it.

If I've pieced together the process from the rambling mess at https://www.cyclinguk.org/article/euros ... e-brussels correctly, it's still a faff: identify your desired train(s) (but you can only leave before 4pm: no evening departures, so anyone from too far away will have to book a London hotel too), call them up (eurostar say email, which will be even slower) and check that there's bike space, then hope the trains still have tickets available, book them, pay £45-60 extra each-way for the bike, then drop the bike off an unspecified amount of time before passenger checkin.

Faff faff faff faff faff and all but the most committed land traveller will have given up and booked their flights before they're halfway through that. Eurostar really seem to be doing the bare minimum, grudgingly. Eurostars are reportedly running below capacity because of the limited capacity of the border checkpoints, so surely it would make sense to load more bikes at £45+ each and other paid large luggage into the unused space?
You have to box a bike to take it on a plane, anyways.
Nowhere accepts CTC bags any more?
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Re: Europe: Flying or not?

Post by Vorpal »

mjr wrote: 2 Jun 2023, 2:27pm
The Brussels service only restarted yesterday according to https://www.cyclinguk.org/article/euros ... e-brussels but https://help.eurostar.com/faq/uk-en/que ... n-Eurostar doesn't mention it.
They have it here https://www.eurostar.com/uk-en/travel-i ... gage/bikes
mjr wrote: 2 Jun 2023, 2:27pm
Vorpal wrote: 2 Jun 2023, 1:40pm You have to box a bike to take it on a plane, anyways.
Nowhere accepts CTC bags any more?
Fair point. It should be boxes or bags. That applies to both trains & planes.
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mattheus
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Re: Europe: Flying or not?

Post by mattheus »

mjr wrote: 2 Jun 2023, 2:27pm
...
You have to box a bike to take it on a plane, anyways.
Nowhere accepts CTC bags any more?
Well yes, some do - it's the minority of carriers though. I certainly recommend it to peeps, but I think none of the bargain airlines take them, and the vast majority of flying cyclists use boxes (or at least padded bags).
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Re: Europe: Flying or not?

Post by simonhill »

Do European stations have baggage trolleys?

If not I couldn't manage a boxed bike particularly one plus a couple of panniers.

Happy to move my bike around as bike with bags attached, otherwise a nightmare. Even as a bike I still need to unload to get up or down stairs.

Airports have baggage trolleys at front door. Once checked in then no luggage to manhandle.

Travelling on a bike is heaven, travelling with a bike is hell. (copyright me).
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Re: Europe: Flying or not?

Post by mattheus »

simonhill wrote: 2 Jun 2023, 3:21pm Do European stations have baggage trolleys?

If not I couldn't manage a boxed bike particularly one plus a couple of panniers.

Happy to move my bike around as bike with bags attached, otherwise a nightmare. Even as a bike I still need to unload to get up or down stairs.

Airports have baggage trolleys at front door. Once checked in then no luggage to manhandle.

Travelling on a bike is heaven, travelling with a bike is hell. (copyright me).
You ain't gonna get to Sri Lanka by train Simon, sorry!
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Re: Europe: Flying or not?

Post by pwa »

mattheus wrote: 2 Jun 2023, 9:08am
Mike Sales wrote: 2 Jun 2023, 8:59am I agree with Galactic. It is unlikely we can avert climate catastrophe without some inconvenience.
Indeed. And it should be self-evident.

As evident as realising I cannot easily buy my dream harbour-view trackside apartment in Monaco ... or CAN I?? ... thinks ...
I just need to steal a couple of million off someone. There are ways to do that. Or maybe people-trafficking? Hmm, a lot of details to iron out.

I may be some time ...
I can save you some money here. Monaco is a dump. I've been there and apart from the tax dodging, I can't think why anyone would want to stay a minute longer than they have to. One thing in its favour though: it doesn't have an airport.
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Re: Europe: Flying or not?

Post by Vorpal »

Galactic wrote: 2 Jun 2023, 8:44am
That's why I shan't be going to northern Norway until I can muster enough time to cycle there, at least from Germany/Denmark (although, because of declining health, that will probably mean I'll never manage it). That's why I'm doing/starting my cycling holidays in places I can get to within 24 hours by train (and now, because of bloody Eurostar being rubbish about bikes, also by ferry).

It makes me sad that I may never see northern Norway again, but hey that's life. We can't have everything we want, can we?
There are ferries that go to northern Norway. Hurtigruten & Havila go from Bergen to Nordkapp & there are other ferries that do portions of that.
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ChrisF
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Re: Europe: Flying or not?

Post by ChrisF »

Vorpal wrote: 2 Jun 2023, 1:40pm
A bike in a box is just luggage for most rail services. On Eurostar, you can take a boxed bike as far as Paris or Brussels, which should be enough, as you can change to other services for whichever route you take onward.
You have to box a bike to take it on a plane, anyways.
Yes, but you only have to load it an one airport and unload it at anoher. You don't have to drag it around eight stations.
Galactic wrote: 2 Jun 2023, 9:46am
Nevertheless, since the necessary change at a societal level isn't being organised by those responsible (ie the elected governments), it falls to us as individuals to do the work, no matter how puny our efforts often seem.
That's really getting back to the point of my original post. The efforts of individuals refusing to fly will be puny. But if, instead, we helped those organisations which have the knowhow to lobby governments, we'll make much more of a difference - won't we?
Still not sure which organisations to help. The question has a wider purpose; I am in the process of writing my will and would like to bequeath a percentage to such causes.
Chris F, Cornwall
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