Uncut steerer?

General cycling advice ( NOT technical ! )
pete75
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Re: Uncut steerer?

Post by pete75 »

axel_knutt wrote: 2 Jun 2023, 3:10pm Whoever invented this system didn't have the sense to foresee that people might have the need to raise the bars after the steerer's been cut. For a more suitable position as they age, for example.

It's fine if you ride for a professional team that's providing you with a brand new state of the art bike every season though.
So don't cut it. Put spacers above the stem. You can use them under the stem when you want to raise the bars.
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mattsccm
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Re: Uncut steerer?

Post by mattsccm »

Methinks the reasoning is to give the customer a choice but I seriously doubt that there is the intention to have 6" of steering column above the head set. Mass produced bikes don't have this because it isn't needed. You buy a different bike if you need to be more upright.
of course you can have a stack of column protruucing but in time the leverage applied can have problems.
francovendee
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Re: Uncut steerer?

Post by francovendee »

pwa wrote: 3 Jun 2023, 10:41am
francovendee wrote: 3 Jun 2023, 10:10am I may have been lucky but I've never had a stuck quill stem in 70 years. I have had to endlessly (it seems) add spacers to my other bike with the 'improved' system as I've gotten older.
Many years ago I wrecked forks on a cheapish Peugeot trying to get a quill stem out. Frozen solid. On another bike I had a Cinelli quill stem that simply would not tighten enough unless I wiped off nearly all the grease. Which I didn't really want to do. And I didn't find the lock nuts on threaded steerers always stayed locked. Altogether, I have found the new system (which isn't new anymore) a lot easier to live with. I'd never buy a new frame if it required a quill stem.
I'm sure you have valid reasons for not liking quill stems. The problem is it's very difficult to find a new bike with a quill stem. They're still available at the very low price sector or you could get a custom frame if you can afford it. The rest of us just have to put up with something they don't feel is the best system. I still believe the manufacturers created this to save themselves manufacturing costs.
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geomannie
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Re: Uncut steerer?

Post by geomannie »

francovendee wrote: 3 Jun 2023, 3:49pm
pwa wrote: 3 Jun 2023, 10:41am
francovendee wrote: 3 Jun 2023, 10:10am I may have been lucky but I've never had a stuck quill stem in 70 years. I have had to endlessly (it seems) add spacers to my other bike with the 'improved' system as I've gotten older.
Many years ago I wrecked forks on a cheapish Peugeot trying to get a quill stem out. Frozen solid. On another bike I had a Cinelli quill stem that simply would not tighten enough unless I wiped off nearly all the grease. Which I didn't really want to do. And I didn't find the lock nuts on threaded steerers always stayed locked. Altogether, I have found the new system (which isn't new anymore) a lot easier to live with. I'd never buy a new frame if it required a quill stem.
I'm sure you have valid reasons for not liking quill stems. The problem is it's very difficult to find a new bike with a quill stem. They're still available at the very low price sector or you could get a custom frame if you can afford it. The rest of us just have to put up with something they don't feel is the best system. I still believe the manufacturers created this to save themselves manufacturing costs.
If you listen to Mike Burrows, the man responsible for popularising the compact frame & Aheadset, he explicitly stated that that one of the main drivers for the change was ease of manufacturing and cost. He did however, believe them better mechanically. Listen here https://thebikeshow.net/burrows-on-the- ... -part-one/ & here https://thebikeshow.net/burrows-on-the- ... laid-back/
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pwa
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Re: Uncut steerer?

Post by pwa »

There is nothing wrong with manufacturers moving over to a new arrangement that suits their production lines, so long as the end product still works for us. And for me, the Aheadset arrangement was an improvement.

And when I think about it, one of the hallmarks of a more traditional frameset is a horizontal top tube. But that design feature only happened because in the days when lugged frames were the quickest and easiest to make, always having the top tube horizontal meant that the maker only had to stock a small variety of lugs to suit a few angle variations. The horizontal top tube was just for the convenience of the manufacturer. And some people came to like it that way.
cycle tramp
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Re: Uncut steerer?

Post by cycle tramp »

LittleGreyCat wrote: 2 Jun 2023, 11:12am Prompted by all the bike fit questions.

My Spa Wayfarer (brand new) came with an uncut steerer.
I was told that I could move the spacers around to get the best fit, then cut it down.
It is still uncut because the highest possible position seems to suit me.

Looking at most bikes in shops they don't seem to have the same height adjustment.

Do bikes come from the manufacturer with uncut steerers and are then cut down at the shop?
Or are Spa particularly thoughtful in this?
Yes, Spa (and Thorn) are thoughtful in this, for other manufacturers it's just profit.

The steerer is supplied to the factory as long round pipes... its then cut up to make steerer tubes. From the point of the factory, they can get more steerer tubes out of one pipe if they were cut shorter... and as a result need to buy less pipe to the make of 10,000 bicycles, slightly increasing their profit at the risk of useful product life to the customer... as far as the bike manufacturer is concerned that's a win-win situation.

Hence really stupid stubby steerer tubes which can cause neck, wrist, shoulder and back issues...
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PH
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Re: Uncut steerer?

Post by PH »

cycle tramp wrote: 4 Jun 2023, 9:07am The steerer is supplied to the factory as long round pipes... its then cut up to make steerer tubes.
That may be true for some steel producers and cycle manufacturers, but Reynolds unthreaded steerer tubes are only listed as 400mm.
cycle tramp
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Re: Uncut steerer?

Post by cycle tramp »

PH wrote: 4 Jun 2023, 11:26am
cycle tramp wrote: 4 Jun 2023, 9:07am The steerer is supplied to the factory as long round pipes... its then cut up to make steerer tubes.
That may be true for some steel producers and cycle manufacturers, but Reynolds unthreaded steerer tubes are only listed as 400mm.
Yeah, but that's Reynolds decision - God didn't magically turn up in their offices at the bequest of UCI and forbid them from making steerer tubes longer than 400mm (least Belezeebub, Lord of flies, feast on their souls forever) - that was a decision based upon customer(frame builder) demand... had the advice in 'ultimate sports performance bicycle torture device monthly' been ignored and everyone had kept their handlebars at saddle height, market forces would have driven Reynolds to make steerer tubes at 700 lengths and beyond..
After all if Spa and Thorn can do it....
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531colin
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Re: Uncut steerer?

Post by 531colin »

For the benefit of anybody who is confused, 400mm is pretty long for a steerer.....400mm would be the axle to crown race measurement of a fork designed for 700c wheels, fairly big tyres, and mudguards.
...see my photo on the first page of this thread.

Most people won't be riding with a steerer anything like that long, and even a Nitto high rise quill stem won't be that high.
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Re: Uncut steerer?

Post by PH »

cycle tramp wrote: 4 Jun 2023, 12:07pm market forces would have driven Reynolds to make steerer tubes at 700 lengths and beyond..
After all if Spa and Thorn can do it....
Put your conspiracy theories away. Neither Thorn or Spa supply bikes with 700mm steerers, Thorn's are 395mm and I expect Spa's are around the same. I suspect the reason Reynolds supply in that standard length is experience tells them it's the shortest they can offer which still accommodates the longest of conventional designs. They'd probably offer a custom option for anything unconventional, but no bike I've seen requires it.
I am sceptical of this idea of yours (Where did it come from?) that manufacturers were buying long lengths and cutting them as short as they could get away with to save pennies, doesn't make sense. Transportation, storage, measuring, cutting.... any savings would soon disappear. Then I'm not sure if steerer tubes are supplied as plain tube, or if they're supplied ready for a crown race.
peterb
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Re: Uncut steerer?

Post by peterb »

The general rule for carbon steerers is that there should be no more than 30 - 40mm of spacers below the stem, and preferably no more than 5 mm above https://velo.outsideonline.com/gear/tec ... ck-height/
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531colin
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Re: Uncut steerer?

Post by 531colin »

In a conventional brazed fork (steerer and fork blades brazed into a crown) the crown race seat is part of the crown.
I'm less familiar with welded unicrown forks, and there may well be several ways of doing it, but I think what I have seen is a sleeve over the bottom of the steerer, with the fork blades welded to the sleeve and the crown race seat machined into the top of the sleeve, or a crown race seat welded in position, possibly with the blades welded directly to the steerer.

In any case, I think the bottom of the steerer is butted internally, so the bottom of the steerer is a thicker wall than the rest of the steerer, because most of the stress and all of the heat is at the bottom......and this means a steerer can't be just cut from plain gauge tubing.

ImageIMG_5703 by 531colin, on Flickr

Thats my Genesis Longitude, size medium. I bought it as "frame and fork" and the steerer did indeed come "uncut"......I have left myself about 30mm of spacers above the stem, and for this photo I have taped what I think is the offcut bit of steerer to the top cap; of course it may just be a random bit of inch and eighth steel tube knocking about in the garage! The overall length of the steerer plus offcut is about 440mm, but you don't see many people riding with their bars that high.

On the first page, PH refers to Surly bikes having a long steerer; is that bikes supplied built, or supplied as frame and fork?
As far as I am aware, what usually happens is all forks are built with a standard (long!) length of steerer, and they are cut down when the bikes are assembled, because its cheaper to make and store just one steerer length rather than having forks with different length steerers for different size bikes.

Different riders may disagree with the brand owners chosen length of steerer for particular size bikes!
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Re: Uncut steerer?

Post by PH »

531colin wrote: 4 Jun 2023, 3:09pm On the first page, PH refers to Surly bikes having a long steerer; is that bikes supplied built, or supplied as frame and fork?
I was only thinking in terms of frameset, the one I bought didn't look like it'd come out of the box since leaving Taiwan.
I'm 6'2" and like a fairly upright position on flat bars, I still usually cut 6 - 8cm from a full length steerer.
I've only ever bought two complete steel bikes, Hewitt's asked if I'd like anything left above the stem, I'd had a bike fit and left 10mm. The other a Thorn and a condition of the 100 day money back trial period was not cutting the steerer, which was fair enough, but it did look absurd.
cycle tramp
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Re: Uncut steerer?

Post by cycle tramp »

So, up thread I suggested that the reason why steerers on bikes weren't longer was to save money... and it's something I still stand by. For those who don't do accountancy, there's a famous story where an airline saved a stupid amount of money per year by serving one less olive in its in fight salad

https://abcnews.go.com/Business/story?id=88166&page=1

Where I did harm my own argument was suggesting that 700mm steerer were available. At this point looking good at the photo in this review (see below) and

https://dorkythorpy.blogspot.com/2011/0 ... w.html?m=1

my own uncut steerer on blatt mk3, I felt that the uncut steerer was longer than 400mm. Yeah, I was wrong, clearly I'm not able to accurate judge measurements by eye. So, a large apology to Reynolds and a big thanks to those who quested my earlier posts.
And looking at the review above 400mm of steerer could well be enough for most people.

In regards to the way they make steerers, ah.. I might have been remembering a black and white film, so perhaps I watched a film about how threaded forks were made...

However, as Reynolds are making 400mm long steerers, then the only way you can explain the lack of steerer height adjustment (in the june/July 2023 cycle) on bikes featured on pages 63 and 65 is cost cutting on a mirco level.. After all three or four additional spacers per bike over a year's production of over ten thousand or even a hundred thousand a year probably adds up to something.
Last edited by cycle tramp on 4 Jun 2023, 10:00pm, edited 1 time in total.
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pwa
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Re: Uncut steerer?

Post by pwa »

If you buy a bike from Evans or Halfords you aren't likely to get a huge amount of steerer because most customers won't think it looks good, and most won't have the nerve or knowledge to take a hacksaw to it to get the right length. It is niche outfits like Spa and Thorn who will give you the choice, by supplying a long steel steerer. Personally, by the time I have finished with it my new steerer is usually a good bit shorter than it started, with a good few grams left in the scrap metal box at the back of the garage.
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