Cup and cone adjustment - the cave man approach

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maximus meridius
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Cup and cone adjustment - the cave man approach

Post by maximus meridius »

So, I thought I had wheel hub adjustment, on cup and cone bearings, nailed. Even made myself a special little, er, thing. To create an axle clamp. Well, it's a piece of angle iron with a hole in it, and some penny washers and the QR.

But I just did a rear hub yesterday which for various reasons wouldn't succumb to my usual method. So I was reduced to setting it up with a little play, putting it in the frame, doing up the QR and seeing if it still had play. Repeat until no play. Thought I had it sorted.

Then today, as part of my "what a fantastic job I've done truing my wheel look at how straight it is" self congratulation I noticed there was actually a tiny bit of play.

I really can't face taking the cassette off and doing it all again.

Solution - just do up the QR a bit tighter. Play disappears!! I'm not an olympic powerlifter, I haven't got the strength to exert a huge amount of force. So I'm comfortable I've not "overtightened" it. What would that be anyway, with a QR? Break the QR rod? It's one of those crappy open to the elements QRs. I'll replace it with a proper Shimano enclosed one sometime.

Good thing is I know the play has only just been taken out. Which is probably ideal, yes?
cyclop
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Location: Dumfriesshire

Re: Cup and cone adjustment - the cave man approach

Post by cyclop »

I set my quick releases so the lever just starts to bite about half way thru it,s travel if thats any help.If it requires it to bite much before halfway,I wouldn,t be happy.Other opinions may differ.
scottg
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Re: Cup and cone adjustment - the cave man approach

Post by scottg »

St. Sheldon of Brown, adjust cones using an old cone as a tool.

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/cone-adjustment.html
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maximus meridius
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Re: Cup and cone adjustment - the cave man approach

Post by maximus meridius »

scottg wrote: 5 Jun 2023, 8:05pm St. Sheldon of Brown, adjust cones using an old cone as a tool.

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/cone-adjustment.html
Thanks. I've seen Sheldon Brown's thing before, but never quite understood it. It would be useful to have more pictures, if anybody's made one. He doesn't say what's happening at the other end of the skewer. Maybe some washers (to take the place of the drop out) pressing on the cone, and the nut of the QR?

I think the thing I made had the same effect, but I may be wrong.

I've always managed to adjust Shimano hubs successfully (I think) using my system. That's partly because the location of the dust seal means it's easy to put your finger over the joint between the dust seal and hub body, and feel a tiny amount of movement.

This hub isn't a Shimano, and there wasn't a similar location. All not helped by the fact that the non drive side wasn't accessible, so I had to make the adjustment at the drive side. I hope I've tightened the locknut sufficiently, aware of the risk of the wrecking the freehub if it isn't.

But as I say, there was a bit of play when the QR was clamped up fairly tight, which disappeared when the QR was clamped up tighter. As Sheldon says "Many people undertighten quick release skewers." I may well be "many people". So in this case I'm happy I've got it right.

Watching how easily the front wheel turns, rotating back and forth as the reflector settles at the bottom, I'm pretty sure it's fine. Just for a laugh I actually set the front wheel spinning, went and made a cup of coffee and came back. It was still turning.

The rear wheel isn't quite as easy to test with the "how easily does it turn" method. I think in the future I might get into the habit of checking the wheel in the frame without the cassette on, so it's like a front wheel - that should work, no?
pwa
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Re: Cup and cone adjustment - the cave man approach

Post by pwa »

Slightly overdoing the rear QR isn't likely to end in disaster, so long as you can undo it by the roadside if you need to. If you are very unlucky and your QR fails, it is on the rear so of less concern. If you can lay your hands on a Shimano one, they are dependable and will accept being tight.

Incidentally, you menion having a reflector on the wheel. Anything attached to the spokes, such as a reflector or a magnet for a computer, can be placed on the opposite side to the valve, avoiding having the wheel (with tyre) any more out of balance than it needs to be.
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531colin
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Re: Cup and cone adjustment - the cave man approach

Post by 531colin »

Using Q/R axle compression to fine tune bearing preload is OK with rim brakes and vertical dropouts.
Disc brake wheels can move in the dropouts with Q/R unless the Q/R is proper tight.....hence through axles; and you can pull the back wheel over in horizontal dropouts.
Cone adjustment and "axle vise" here......viewtopic.php?t=143125&start=15
hoogerbooger
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Re: Cup and cone adjustment - the cave man approach

Post by hoogerbooger »

I similarly went for the "oh #ugger just tighten up the QR a bit more" approach after an hour or so of adjusting and re-adjusting the cones last time I serviced my Tiagra hubs ...thinking this time I'd do it properly.

I guess I'll have another read on the hub vice approach.......but having said that my various hubs ( Shimano Deore or above) have never been specifically adjusted to have a little play out of the bike........and all seem to have survived for 10 years or more without any evidence of adverse wear, even on the main rough stuff touring bike that's had the heaviest use.
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bluespeeder
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Re: Cup and cone adjustment - the cave man approach

Post by bluespeeder »

maximus meridius wrote: 5 Jun 2023, 5:58pm So, I thought I had wheel hub adjustment, on cup and cone bearings, nailed. Even made myself a special little, er, thing. To create an axle clamp. Well, it's a piece of angle iron with a hole in it, and some penny washers and the QR.

But I just did a rear hub yesterday which for various reasons wouldn't succumb to my usual method. So I was reduced to setting it up with a little play, putting it in the frame, doing up the QR and seeing if it still had play. Repeat until no play. Thought I had it sorted.

Then today, as part of my "what a fantastic job I've done truing my wheel look at how straight it is" self congratulation I noticed there was actually a tiny bit of play.

I really can't face taking the cassette off and doing it all again.

Solution - just do up the QR a bit tighter. Play disappears!! I'm not an olympic powerlifter, I haven't got the strength to exert a huge amount of force. So I'm comfortable I've not "overtightened" it. What would that be anyway, with a QR? Break the QR rod? It's one of those crappy open to the elements QRs. I'll replace it with a proper Shimano enclosed one sometime.

Good thing is I know the play has only just been taken out. Which is probably ideal, yes?
It should be possible to adjust without removing the cassette (on the non drive side). I find my wheels have some play which comes and goes as you rotate the wheel so I set up so the play just disappears at some points and accept a bit of play at others. I'm not sure if this is uneven cone wear or cheap ball bearings but they run fine and always settle with the valve at the top (I think this is due to how the rim is joined with steel pins, this has been done opposite the valve to minimise imbalance)
maximus meridius
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Re: Cup and cone adjustment - the cave man approach

Post by maximus meridius »

bluespeeder wrote: 6 Jun 2023, 2:34pm
maximus meridius wrote: 5 Jun 2023, 5:58pm So, I thought I had wheel hub adjustment, on cup and cone bearings, nailed. Even made myself a special little, er, thing. To create an axle clamp. Well, it's a piece of angle iron with a hole in it, and some penny washers and the QR.

But I just did a rear hub yesterday which for various reasons wouldn't succumb to my usual method. So I was reduced to setting it up with a little play, putting it in the frame, doing up the QR and seeing if it still had play. Repeat until no play. Thought I had it sorted.

Then today, as part of my "what a fantastic job I've done truing my wheel look at how straight it is" self congratulation I noticed there was actually a tiny bit of play.

I really can't face taking the cassette off and doing it all again.

Solution - just do up the QR a bit tighter. Play disappears!! I'm not an olympic powerlifter, I haven't got the strength to exert a huge amount of force. So I'm comfortable I've not "overtightened" it. What would that be anyway, with a QR? Break the QR rod? It's one of those crappy open to the elements QRs. I'll replace it with a proper Shimano enclosed one sometime.

Good thing is I know the play has only just been taken out. Which is probably ideal, yes?
It should be possible to adjust without removing the cassette (on the non drive side). I find my wheels have some play which comes and goes as you rotate the wheel so I set up so the play just disappears at some points and accept a bit of play at others. I'm not sure if this is uneven cone wear or cheap ball bearings but they run fine and always settle with the valve at the top (I think this is due to how the rim is joined with steel pins, this has been done opposite the valve to minimise imbalance)
I couldn't adjust on the NDS. I know the advice is to adjust there, and leave the DS alone. In fact some people recommend using thread-locker to fix the cone and locknut on that side. But on this particular hub I don't think I can get at the NDS, but that's for a different thread.

Just rotating the wheel by hand, and watching it settle, it seems fine. In future I think I'll try putting rear wheel back in the bike without the cassette, and see how it feels.
crazyfrog
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Re: Cup and cone adjustment - the cave man approach

Post by crazyfrog »

I’d normally assume you’re not torquing things enough but if you’ve been riding. It sounds like you’ve lost a spacer somewhere. Perhaps buying a new hub and placing that axle set into your existing hub body will be the quickest way to fix your issue.
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CJ
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Re: Cup and cone adjustment - the cave man approach

Post by CJ »

maximus meridius wrote: 5 Jun 2023, 5:58pm... Solution - just do up the QR a bit tighter. Play disappears!! I'm not an olympic powerlifter, I haven't got the strength to exert a huge amount of force. So I'm comfortable I've not "overtightened" it. What would that be anyway, with a QR? Break the QR rod? It's one of those crappy open to the elements QRs. I'll replace it with a proper Shimano enclosed one sometime.

Good thing is I know the play has only just been taken out. Which is probably ideal, yes?
Yes that's ideal and don't worry about breaking the QR rod. That will be impossible with what you rightly call one of those crappy open to the elements QRs. I have those on my 'new' carbon gravel bike's thru-axles. I need to teflon-grease the rear one every time I take the wheel out AND re-tighten it with the full force of my hand (so tight I need additional leverage to open it again). If I don't, the hub fidgets under the usual variations in chain tension, so the frame makes awful creaking noises up every steep hill! And since this bike does get used on gravel sometimes, the grease always gets gritty. NOT practical!
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Bmblbzzz
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Re: Cup and cone adjustment - the cave man approach

Post by Bmblbzzz »

A QR on a thru-axle seems strange. Is there no screw thread on the axle? I can't quite envisage how this works.
axel_knutt
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Re: Cup and cone adjustment - the cave man approach

Post by axel_knutt »

maximus meridius wrote: 5 Jun 2023, 5:58pmI was reduced to setting it up with a little play, putting it in the frame, doing up the QR and seeing if it still had play. Repeat until no play.
There's no need to do this more than once.

Start by screwing the cone all the way down to the bearing (just gently with the fingers, not tight), then back it off by a measured amount using the cone spanner and spokes as a protractor. Then try it, and repeat until you have the right clearance, then record the cone setting. Now every other time you need to set the cones you just use the same setting as before, and get it right first time every time. As someone above said, you can use the angle of the Q/R lever to gauge the consistency of the tension applied to the skewer.
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freiston
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Re: Cup and cone adjustment - the cave man approach

Post by freiston »

I have a couple of spare nuts that fit the hollow axle. I screw these almost all the way on to the axle ends, replace the skewer and tighten it up to get the compression on the axle before setting to the cone adjustment/locking. It seems to do the job for me but I'd be happy if anyone can point out problems with this method. I've tried the fine adjust by slacking off a small increment before tightening the locknut but found it difficult to not change the slack when tightening up; I don't know why but I find it easier to get it right when I don't have to put some slack in.
Disclaimer: Treat what I say with caution and if possible, wait for someone with more knowledge and experience to contribute. ;)
maximus meridius
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Re: Cup and cone adjustment - the cave man approach

Post by maximus meridius »

Thanks for the advice folks.

This reply will take the form of "talking it through out loud" and asking for advice or opinions.

This particular hub is problematic, because it doesn't seem to be possible to get at the non drive side cone. The inner face of what I think is the lock nut, and the outer face of the cone are covered by a conical seal. Here's a picture:
IMG_4426.jpeg
Hopefully you can see that the conical section is made up of two parts. The outer section is rubber, or similar. The inner section is metal, and part of the hub shell/flange. In fact, with this in a bike stand, I spent bloomin' ages trying to track down a rubbing sound (I was working on the brakes). It sure sounded like rubber on something, "is it the tyres on the chainstays" I thought. Eventually I twigged. The rubber seal was dry and rubbing against the hub shell. The very thing, in fact, that somebody here has said trashes seals. I just rubbed a bit of grease on it and it went. But then I decided to overhaul the hub anyway.

This is a Formula hub, dating from about 2007. It looks like one of these:

https://www.formulahubs.com/technology.php, If that doesn't look right, you may need to click right or left till you get something that says "Reliable Water Resistant". There will be a sectional drawing of a hub that looks very similar to mine.

It's not clear to me:

1. If that rubber seal is intended to come off. I tried, gently. I've got a seal pick and ran it round the seal. But I didn't want to force it.

2. And/or if the thing that looks like a lock nut and the cone are actually one piece. Given the advice to usually leave the drive side cone and locknut alone, in fact to loctite them in position, there's no reason that they shouldn't be one piece, is there? Adjustment is usually only done on one side.

I have emailed the company, but I'm dubious whether I'll get a reply or not.

If anybody has experienced one of these hubs, please let me know if you got that seal off.

My other issue is this:

I'm adjusting the cone.
I get it with minimal play.
I tighten the locknut.
I notice that the axle itself is rotating.

Now, with a cone spanner on the cone, that doesn't matter as far as that side of the hub goes. I'm still moving the cone and locknut close together, and locking them.

But if the axle is rotating (only a little bit) only two things can be happening:

1. It is rotating and taking the cone/locknut at the other end with it. In which case the adjustment is all wrong, because the two cones are getting further apart.

2. The cone/locknut at the other end is staying in place and the axle is rotating within in them. In which case it doesn't matter, because the two cones are staying the desired distance apart.

As long as the axle protrudes from the dropouts by roughly equal amounts.

Of course a combination of 1. and 2. may be happening.

So do people fix the opposite end somehow? Locknut in a vice?

Thanks.
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