Etiquette when quoting

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mjr
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Re: Etiquette when quoting

Post by mjr »

Nearholmer wrote: 7 Jun 2023, 11:24am I’d assumed that people followed threads, and recognised their own words when quoted.
Firstly, the tools for following threads on here include being notified when someone replies to you. Removing the author credit breaks that tool.

Secondly, I've written a few times on here about my past memory problems and I doubt I'm the only one. However, I don't expect everyone to remember that, so I don't take name-removing personally for that reason, but I do consider it disrespectful of my copyright.
And, I think of conversations on forums as a bit like chats/debates in the pub or cafe, rather than the sort of hissing-contests that precious academics indulge in, where the precise forms of citation become ways of winning or losing points in the game.
I think most people take it like that, but we do have a few posters that seem rather too keen to have the last word as if it somehow proves them correct.
Anyway …. The software on this form of forum is a bit clunky and antiquated, some use far more sophisticated systems, but I have a feeling that sophistication comes at a large price.
Yes, it usually raises the barriers to entry. Some popular forum software pretty much blocks assisted browsers, as I discovered when I used a screen-reader while recovering from covid. Some forum software is also very battery-hungry, while some tracks user behaviour in a very stalkerish manner.
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Re: Etiquette when quoting

Post by mjr »

Bmblbzzz wrote: 7 Jun 2023, 11:34am One reason to quote without the poster's name is that you're responding to a thread in general, not that specific person.
Well, in that case, please don't, because that's a terrible reason to appropriate someone's writing. If you're not replying to my words, don't quote me. Please paraphrase the general point if you like, or just post it as a reply to the thread in general.
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roubaixtuesday
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Re: Etiquette when quoting

Post by roubaixtuesday »

mjr wrote: 7 Jun 2023, 1:29pm
...we do have a few posters that seem rather too keen to have the last word as if it somehow proves them correct.
Only people other than me though.

I never do that.

Not me. No sir.
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Re: Etiquette when quoting

Post by Vorpal »

I suppose that simplest reason not to include a name is when someone has written several paragraphs about something, it's much easier, especially on a smaller device to copy only the desired text, and use the quote button on the reply than it is to use the quote button on the on the post and delete that material that isn't wanted. The latter is much more likely to lead to mistakes, and again more likely when there are embedded quotes in the quoted material.
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Re: Etiquette when quoting

Post by Nearholmer »

Calling it, as I do, a pub/cafe is definitely not a perfect analogy, but isn’t that in my in the nature of analogies?

The point is that internet forums (fora?) are informal places, except I suppose closed groups where people transact serious stuff for serious purposes.

The conversations go off at tangents (often interesting ones), people’s individual characters, natures and prejudices become clear after a bit. People do wander in and out, picking up threads, dropping them, occasionally missing or repeating points that were made while they were busy elsewhere, etc. People sometimes get a bit shirty with one another, and even that might be fuelled by excess caffeine or alcohol, just as it can be in a cafe or a pub. Some very knowledgeable, and some very wise people, and some people who are both knowledgeable and wise frequent this pub/cafe, so it’s worth visiting.

Yes, it’s a pub or cafe with the lid off, so everyone in the world can listen if they want, but it’s informal, and egalitarian.

A formal debating chamber, or a committee constituted under rules by a learned body it isn’t.
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Re: Etiquette when quoting

Post by mjr »

Vorpal wrote: 7 Jun 2023, 1:46pm [...] it's much easier, especially on a smaller device to copy only the desired text, and use the quote button on the reply than it is to use the quote button on the on the post and delete that material that isn't wanted. [...]
The quote button under the reply form doesn't work on low-power devices.

I'd say it's also a bug if it doesn't include the author credit and link to context. The software shouldn't be encouraging copyright infringement by making it extra work to credit the quote's author.

Edit: I just tested it on a low-security full-power sandbox browser and the quote button on the "Topic Review" does indeed include the author credit. Are you taking about manually copy-pasting and using the quote button on the toolbar? Is it really too much to ask that you add "=mjr" inside the square brackets and give the previous author their due credit?
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Re: Etiquette when quoting

Post by mattheus »

Nearholmer wrote: 7 Jun 2023, 1:47pm Calling it, as I do, a pub/cafe is definitely not a perfect analogy, but isn’t that in my in the nature of analogies?

The point is that internet forums (fora?) are informal places, except I suppose closed groups where people transact serious stuff for serious purposes.

The conversations go off at tangents (often interesting ones), people’s individual characters, natures and prejudices become clear after a bit. People do wander in and out, picking up threads, dropping them, occasionally missing or repeating points that were made while they were busy elsewhere, etc. People sometimes get a bit shirty with one another, and even that might be fuelled by excess caffeine or alcohol, just as it can be in a cafe or a pub. Some very knowledgeable, and some very wise people, and some people who are both knowledgeable and wise frequent this pub/cafe, so it’s worth visiting.

Yes, it’s a pub or cafe with the lid off, so everyone in the world can listen if they want, but it’s informal, and egalitarian.

A formal debating chamber, or a committee constituted under rules by a learned body it isn’t.
Sadly you can't just sit in the corner and enjoy your pint or cream tea in peace and quiet.

And many other differences, but I can't be ar5ed to list more right now; tangents to explore elsewhere, soz ...
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Re: Etiquette when quoting

Post by Bmblbzzz »

What's more, it's a self-service cafe and that rarest of venues, a BYO pub. :lol:
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Re: Etiquette when quoting

Post by Vorpal »

mjr wrote: 7 Jun 2023, 1:57pm
Vorpal wrote: 7 Jun 2023, 1:46pm [...] it's much easier, especially on a smaller device to copy only the desired text, and use the quote button on the reply than it is to use the quote button on the on the post and delete that material that isn't wanted. [...]
The quote button under the reply form doesn't work on low-power devices.

I'd say it's also a bug if it doesn't include the author credit and link to context. The software shouldn't be encouraging copyright infringement by making it extra work to credit the quote's author.

Edit: I just tested it on a low-security full-power sandbox browser and the quote button on the "Topic Review" does indeed include the author credit. Are you taking about manually copy-pasting and using the quote button on the toolbar? Is it really too much to ask that you add "=mjr" inside the square brackets and give the previous author their due credit?
Sorry if it wasn't clear, but yes, I was talking about manually copying portions of text.

Given the the number of times I have fixed misassigned quotes, incorrectly embedded or badly edited quotes, I think in some cases, it probably is too much to ask for people to add author attribution.
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Re: Etiquette when quoting

Post by Paulatic »

Vorpal wrote: 7 Jun 2023, 1:46pm I suppose that simplest reason not to include a name is when someone has written several paragraphs about something, it's much easier, especially on a smaller device to copy only the desired text, and use the quote button on the reply than it is to use the quote button on the on the post and delete that material that isn't wanted. The latter is much more likely to lead to mistakes, and again more likely when there are embedded quotes in the quoted material.
This is a valid point. I can’t remember when it changed but in the past it was possible to select a valid portion of a post then hit the quote marks and that was then quoted and identified.
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Re: Etiquette when quoting

Post by Jdsk »

Paulatic wrote: 7 Jun 2023, 2:48pm
Vorpal wrote: 7 Jun 2023, 1:46pm I suppose that simplest reason not to include a name is when someone has written several paragraphs about something, it's much easier, especially on a smaller device to copy only the desired text, and use the quote button on the reply than it is to use the quote button on the on the post and delete that material that isn't wanted. The latter is much more likely to lead to mistakes, and again more likely when there are embedded quotes in the quoted material.
This is a valid point. I can’t remember when it changed but in the past it was possible to select a valid portion of a post then hit the quote marks and that was then quoted and identified.
That works once you've already started a post. You can scroll to another post, select some text and click the quote button.

But if you start the reply with selected text and the quote button you get the whole thing rather than the selection. (Just checked.)

Jonathan
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Re: Etiquette when quoting

Post by Bmblbzzz »

Does it?
Jdsk wrote: 7 Jun 2023, 2:54pm That works once you've already started a post. You can scroll to another post, select some text and click the quote button.
Gosh! Learn a new thing every day. To be clear (cos it wasn't obvious to me), it's the quote button on the source text that you have to click – which might not be easy when you've selected one small portion of a long post.
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Re: Etiquette when quoting

Post by slowster »

Jdsk wrote: 7 Jun 2023, 2:54pm
Paulatic wrote: 7 Jun 2023, 2:48pm
Vorpal wrote: 7 Jun 2023, 1:46pm I suppose that simplest reason not to include a name is when someone has written several paragraphs about something, it's much easier, especially on a smaller device to copy only the desired text, and use the quote button on the reply than it is to use the quote button on the on the post and delete that material that isn't wanted. The latter is much more likely to lead to mistakes, and again more likely when there are embedded quotes in the quoted material.
This is a valid point. I can’t remember when it changed but in the past it was possible to select a valid portion of a post then hit the quote marks and that was then quoted and identified.
That works once you've already started a post. You can scroll to another post, select some text and click the quote button.

But if you start the reply with selected text and the quote button you get the whole thing rather than the selection. (Just checked.)

Jonathan
However, if the text being quoted itself contains a quote/quotes, the nesting does not work (at least not for me), and instead the result is this:
Jdsk wrote: 7 Jun 2023, 2:54pm 7 Jun 2023, 2:48pm

Vorpal wrote: ↑7 Jun 2023, 1:46pm
I suppose that simplest reason not to include a name is when someone has written several paragraphs about something, it's much easier, especially on a smaller device to copy only the desired text, and use the quote button on the reply than it is to use the quote button on the on the post and delete that material that isn't wanted. The latter is much more likely to lead to mistakes, and again more likely when there are embedded quotes in the quoted material.

This is a valid point. I can’t remember when it changed but in the past it was possible to select a valid portion of a post then hit the quote marks and that was then quoted and identified.

That works once you've already started a post. You can scroll to another post, select some text and click the quote button.

But if you start the reply with selected text and the quote button you get the whole thing rather than the selection. (Just checked.)

Jonathan
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Re: Etiquette when quoting

Post by Paulatic »

Jdsk wrote: 7 Jun 2023, 2:54pm

But if you start the reply with selected text and the quote button you get the whole thing rather than the selection. (Just checked.)

Jonathan
That’s how it used to work for me. IOS Safari.
But now if I select Gosh! Learn a new thing every day Then press " This is what happens
quote=Bmblbzzz post_id=1777422 time=1686146643 user_id=25113]
Does it?
[quote=Jdsk post_id=<a href="tel:1777415">1777415</a> time=<a href="tel:1686146058">1686146058</a> user_id=46950]
That works once you've already started a post. You can scroll to another post, select some text and click the quote button.
[/quote]
Gosh! Learn a new thing every day. To be clear (cos it wasn't obvious to me), it's the quote button on the source text that you have to click – which might not be easy when you've selected one small portion of a long post.
[/quote]

It must have been like this for over a year now.
Last edited by Paulatic on 7 Jun 2023, 3:15pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Etiquette when quoting

Post by Jdsk »

Jdsk wrote: 7 Jun 2023, 2:54pm
Paulatic wrote: 7 Jun 2023, 2:48pm
Vorpal wrote: 7 Jun 2023, 1:46pm I suppose that simplest reason not to include a name is when someone has written several paragraphs about something, it's much easier, especially on a smaller device to copy only the desired text, and use the quote button on the reply than it is to use the quote button on the on the post and delete that material that isn't wanted. The latter is much more likely to lead to mistakes, and again more likely when there are embedded quotes in the quoted material.
This is a valid point. I can’t remember when it changed but in the past it was possible to select a valid portion of a post then hit the quote marks and that was then quoted and identified.
That works once you've already started a post. You can scroll to another post, select some text and click the quote button.

But if you start the reply with selected text and the quote button you get the whole thing rather than the selection. (Just checked.)
That was with Safari on macOS.

Jonathan
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