HPV SMGT - what's an equivalent in upright bike format?

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Tangled Metal
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HPV SMGT - what's an equivalent in upright bike format?

Post by Tangled Metal »

My tank is a good tourer that handles 110 litres of ortlieb panniers and another 25 litres of dry bag with ease. What's the equivalent upright for that? A real tourer capable of comfort with a large capacity of luggage?

Which then leads to uprights / recumbent equivalents. What recumbent do you have and what would you say is an upright equivalent? I know they're different but surely you can compare by working out the use type / style.
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pjclinch
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Re: HPV SMGT - what's an equivalent in upright bike format?

Post by pjclinch »

As you know I tour on a Streetmachine, but I don't think it has an "upright equivalent". Nothing upright does quite the same things the same way, which is why I spent the extra on a 'bent.
I'm eyeing up off-road tourers at the moment, and it won't be a 'bent: ideally a Shand Tam, but the money is an issue! That will take the same heavy loads, and it'll handle gnarlier terrain (and be easier to push when it's too hard...), but I won't want to go on for as long as my body will protest sooner. But should I get it it'll spend it's time off road with the odd diversion on to make routes, rather than the other way around which is what I do on the 'bent.

But there's no shortage of well-built, 4-pannier capable upright tourers, both flat and drop bar. There's usually an ad or two for them in any given issue of Cycle, with a nice Surley in tha latest copy. I'm eyeing the Shand as it's got a bit more off-road DNA (Lee Craigie uses one for bonkers adventure races), plus it has a Rohloff and belt as standard and I'm not a fan of derailleurs even though I have and use several.

My wife's 'bent is lower and quicker, more Audaxy... but I wouldn't try an Audax on an upright as my body would complain. Obviously there are lots of Audax bikes available, but they get their nippiness from light weight rather than good aero.

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Tangled Metal
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Re: HPV SMGT - what's an equivalent in upright bike format?

Post by Tangled Metal »

I'm thinking of healthy body options, I know some go to recumbents because of back issues or comfort, I've explained that comfort and bents don't come together with my SMGT, so I reckon if that's a non-issue there's got to be something equivalent to the SMGT or other recumbents. It's about function.

Surly is a good tourer but I heard its not as good unladen. I think recumbent tourers like SMGT & SMGTe are still good unladen. So I don't quite think surly trucker types of tourer are quite equivalent. I was thinking the tour de fer but not the croix de fer i think. No expert though.
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Re: HPV SMGT - what's an equivalent in upright bike format?

Post by a.twiddler »

Unless someone out there is equally into touring on a recumbent and an upright bike and has direct knowledge, It's hard to say. Something like an SMGT can be adjusted to its load due to its suspension, whereas it's the luck of the draw whether you'll find an upright that has the frame qualities that is not too stiff unladen, or if compliant unladen, doesn't become too flexy when loaded. And again, bikes are such personal things. One man's responsive bike is another's squirrelly ride, another man's stable and predictable bike is another's stodgy and unresponsive lorry. You can go by reputation and reviews but in the end you find out the hard way by buying something and using it to see if it suits.

Sometimes the most unlikely bike does what you want. I'd always dreamed of having a Dawes Galaxy but eventually bought a Claud Butler Dalesman. It was a nice steel tourer but over the years my neck got stiffer and the head down position became uncomfortable. On a whim I bought a used Revolution Country Explorer as the front end was higher than the Dalesman. The Dalesman was 631 tubing, the Explorer was chrome moly, in theory an "inferior" material but somehow the ride was so much nicer. I sold the Dalesman and the Explorer did me for all sorts of riding until I discovered recumbents. You can stress about specifications, and there is a bewildering selection of touring type bikes about now, especially if you include gravel bikes, but no one has an unlimited amount of money or an infinite number of years to try everything.

Sometimes, if you can narrow things down and take the plunge, if it's near enough, you can get a lot of pleasure from "riding wot you got" even if you have to make small changes to get it the way you want it (which is probably what we all do, anyway).

I think you will have to accept that there's no direct equivalent for most recumbent bikes in terms of uprights. I suppose a hybrid could be compared to something like a bike-E which is reputedly good in town and on tracks and trails. Some recumbents are more sporty than others, as upright bikes are, but they will all have the same drawbacks which to you have become an obstacle to enjoying them. Recumbents are not for everyone, as I have to keep reminding myself.
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Re: HPV SMGT - what's an equivalent in upright bike format?

Post by Nearholmer »

When I read the OP, and totted-up 135 litres, then made a guesstimate of total weight, based on an instinct for the density of ‘stuff’ carried on a tour, my instant answer was: a Harley-Davidson Heritage Classic with 1900cc engine.

135 litres is a heck of a lot.
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Re: HPV SMGT - what's an equivalent in upright bike format?

Post by UpWrong »

Does anyone make a stiff upright with suspension since that would be the equivalent to a Streetmachine? I think not.

For a four pannier upright, take a look at the Spa D'Tour. That with a sprung saddle and 40mm tyres is on my radar. I'd build up frameset with flat swept back bars.
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Re: HPV SMGT - what's an equivalent in upright bike format?

Post by Tangled Metal »

Nearholmer wrote: 10 Jun 2023, 7:22am When I read the OP, and totted-up 135 litres, then made a guesstimate of total weight, based on an instinct for the density of ‘stuff’ carried on a tour, my instant answer was: a Harley-Davidson Heritage Classic with 1900cc engine.

135 litres is a heck of a lot.
Not really, light camping kit with bulky but light kit for the kid who wasn't carrying much. I got the same kit into a full frame bag, two std ortliebs and a 25l dry bag on my upright on the next trip but with less bulky kit for the lad and him carrying a bit more. Bulk vs weight was the thing on that trip. Later trip my upright touring setup was possibly a little heavier.
Tangled Metal
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Re: HPV SMGT - what's an equivalent in upright bike format?

Post by Tangled Metal »

UpWrong wrote: 10 Jun 2023, 7:50am Does anyone make a stiff upright with suspension since that would be the equivalent to a Streetmachine? I think not.

For a four pannier upright, take a look at the Spa D'Tour. That with a sprung saddle and 40mm tyres is on my radar. I'd build up frameset with flat swept back bars.
I think the suspension on a recumbent is needed more because all road buzz would be transmitted straight to your back. Uprights use the human body's construction to cope with the shocks better. When out Thursday on my bent I got quite the hard bump and felt it on a section of road I've never really noticed it on my upright. I use 37mm tyres on my upright and 40mm on my suspended bent. I think my SMGT doesn't have very good suspension as i actually feel the bumps in my back more than my upright. I believe the rear shock was the standard weight one, I'm 85kg which I think is still in the weight range for the suspension.

One other point I would make, I find it easier to spot and avoid potholes on my upright, I think it's simply more responsive and I guess being mire used to upright makes for me seeing issues with the road sooner. I like my recumbent but I don't think it works for me as well as uprights.

I would say the tour de fer for me is as close to an equivalent. As above suspension isn't as good as it seems on paper in my actual experience. Test rides on a TdF felt at least as good if not better. Not fully loaded one just partially loaded one though.
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pjclinch
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Re: HPV SMGT - what's an equivalent in upright bike format?

Post by pjclinch »

Tangled Metal wrote: 10 Jun 2023, 2:20pm
I think the suspension on a recumbent is needed more because all road buzz would be transmitted straight to your back.
For some values of "all". The seat/cushion will have a lot of damping effect IME, with my first 'bent having no suspension but its mesh & webbing seat still proving much more comfortable for me than my old upright.
My Streetmachine has a Ventisit seat cushion (see https://www.ventisit.nl/en/applications/recumbents/ and that also adds quite a bit of useful damping if vibration and minor bumps.
Tangled Metal wrote: 10 Jun 2023, 2:20pm One other point I would make, I find it easier to spot and avoid potholes on my upright, I think it's simply more responsive and I guess being mire used to upright makes for me seeing issues with the road sooner.
Neither things I find myself. While the Streetmachine is not great for manoeuvrability at very low speeds, once it's moving the steering is very responsive indeed thanks to the short wheel base and low steering trail. And if you do hit a pothole one is less likely to exit over the bars head first...

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UpWrong
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Re: HPV SMGT - what's an equivalent in upright bike format?

Post by UpWrong »

Tangled Metal wrote: 10 Jun 2023, 2:20pm
UpWrong wrote: 10 Jun 2023, 7:50am Does anyone make a stiff upright with suspension since that would be the equivalent to a Streetmachine? I think not.

For a four pannier upright, take a look at the Spa D'Tour. That with a sprung saddle and 40mm tyres is on my radar. I'd build up frameset with flat swept back bars.
I think the suspension on a recumbent is needed more because all road buzz would be transmitted straight to your back. Uprights use the human body's construction to cope with the shocks better. When out Thursday on my bent I got quite the hard bump and felt it on a section of road I've never really noticed it on my upright. I use 37mm tyres on my upright and 40mm on my suspended bent. I think my SMGT doesn't have very good suspension as i actually feel the bumps in my back more than my upright. I believe the rear shock was the standard weight one, I'm 85kg which I think is still in the weight range for the suspension.
Sounds to me like your suspension is shot or the swingarm pivot needs servicing. It should be a magic carpet ride.
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Re: HPV SMGT - what's an equivalent in upright bike format?

Post by nobrakes »

My heavy DF workhorse do it all bike is a Specialized Crosstrail. It does most things well but no things amazingly, a bit like a heavy suspended 2 wheel bent. It's a good touring bike with a heavy duty topeak rack on the back. I take it away on holidays usually where I don't mind leaving it outside in salty sea air to be crapped on by the birds and if it gets nicked it didn't cost much.

I think suspension on a bent is a very good thing, perhaps even essential depending on the roads. I have more than once completely lost contact with the seat after hitting a pothole on the M5. Crashes are not far away if you do that kind of thing regularly.

The Fuego is I guess a bit like the SM. Rear suspension only but it floats over everything so well that you can almost forget the roads are bad. Especially with 42mm tyres. It's also heavy like the SM so not the fastest overall, but incredibly comfy.
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Re: HPV SMGT - what's an equivalent in upright bike format?

Post by pjclinch »

UpWrong wrote: 10 Jun 2023, 7:50am Does anyone make a stiff upright with suspension since that would be the equivalent to a Streetmachine? I think not.
Various Moultons fit the bill nicely, the AM GT is specifically aimed at touring, and it is similarly "reassuringly expensive"...

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Re: HPV SMGT - what's an equivalent in upright bike format?

Post by pjclinch »

nobrakes wrote: 14 Jun 2023, 4:27pm I think suspension on a bent is a very good thing, perhaps even essential depending on the roads. I have more than once completely lost contact with the seat after hitting a pothole on the M5. Crashes are not far away if you do that kind of thing regularly.
Having previously been used to the unsuspended Orbit Crystal I was wondering if the sus on the Streetmachine was worth having...
My first big ride on the Streetmachine ended up with a descent on a beautifully resurfaced B-road on Arran and I came round a bend at a considerable of speed to be faced with a potholed ruin in front of me, presumably as far as the resurfacing job had got. I really thought I had a major prang in my immediate future, but instead ended up thinking, "so that's why they put full suspension on a road-going tourer"...

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belgiangoth
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Re: HPV SMGT - what's an equivalent in upright bike format?

Post by belgiangoth »

pjclinch wrote: 14 Jun 2023, 4:28pm
UpWrong wrote: 10 Jun 2023, 7:50am Does anyone make a stiff upright with suspension since that would be the equivalent to a Streetmachine? I think not.
Various Moultons fit the bill nicely, the AM GT is specifically aimed at touring, and it is similarly "reassuringly expensive"...
I was thinking Moulton as well.
Overengineered for the sake of it, heavier than needed and expensive. But for some it's the best tool for the job.
If I had a baby elephant, I would put it on a recumbent trike so that it would become invisible.
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Re: HPV SMGT - what's an equivalent in upright bike format?

Post by pjclinch »

belgiangoth wrote: 18 Jun 2023, 11:14pm
pjclinch wrote: 14 Jun 2023, 4:28pm
UpWrong wrote: 10 Jun 2023, 7:50am Does anyone make a stiff upright with suspension since that would be the equivalent to a Streetmachine? I think not.
Various Moultons fit the bill nicely, the AM GT is specifically aimed at touring, and it is similarly "reassuringly expensive"...
I was thinking Moulton as well.
Overengineered for the sake of it, heavier than needed and expensive. But for some it's the best tool for the job.
For "general purpose" riding I simply enjoy riding my TSR more than any other bike. The combination of comfort, manoeuvrability and ease of manhandling just does it better than "normal" bikes for me.
Over engineered? What does it have that isn't part of the overall design goal of a good general purpose bike? The space frame means you can have a very rigid frame with an easy step-over. The suspension means you can have smaller wheels and still keep a comfortable ride. The smaller wheels make it more compact, nippier handling, better suited to frame-mounted, suspended luggage and you don't get problems associated with 700c wheels and diminutive riders.
Expensive, sadly yes...

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