German technology and my backside don’t agree

[Brianjeff50]

I recently bought a very excellent new Airnimal Joey Endurance - about the nearest thing to a ‘proper’ bike a folder can be.
The only thing I didn’t like was the stock saddle - a Madison - just a bit narrow for my wid-ish backside.
After a bit of research I was wooed by the high-tech claims of an Ergon SM.
It’s been a painful experience so far as the sizeable red weal on my bum after just 100 miles is witness. Why?
It’s very hard - so much for the clever foams.
I still get perineal pressure - despite the relief channel.
Worst, and this is obviously partly a bike issue, I can’t get it back far enough to get a fit and balance that feel correct without sliding myself over the back of the saddle.
What I need is a saddle comfortable on long rides, using the tops and drops, ideally with long rails to maximise adjustment, (I can’t use a set-back seat post as the Airnimal has a special), perineal relief and some flexibility (I’m guessing from the evidence of my backside that one ‘cheek’ is taking more of a hammering than the other.
Randomly buying saddles is not the answer - even German ones! Any tips gratefully received.

[irc]

Unfortunately trying them out is the only way. I like wide saddles with a little bit of padding but not the squidgy soft saddles sold as "comfort" saddles. I found the Specailizec Sonoma 175mm widtn was perfect. I now have 4. Two in use and two currently spare. Long out of production. I bought one new and the others second hand.

I recently tried another saddle which I am using on my summer bike. A flat bar road bike. The Bontrager Nebula. It is working well. A fraction firmer than the Spesh but comfortable and no issues with rides of up to 3 hours so far.

It is 165mm wide. So that is only a cm wider than the larger size Ergon SM. Would this be enough? Who knows. There is currently a couple on Ebay though. So it would only cost you £18-£25 to find out.

Edit - PS I'm not convinced about the claims of channels to avoid perineal pressure. IMO if your weight is primarily on your sit bones it isn't a problem. Perineal pressure on the other hand could be a symptom of a saddle that was too narrow if one or both sit bones were off the edge of the saddle.

[PH]

What saddle works for you on other bikes? As you say it rides as close as a folder gets to a full size bike, I think your problems are compounded by not being able to tell if it's position, saddle or both, if you could change one for something you know works it would eliminate or confirm.
I use the same saddle (Brooks Cambian C17) on several bikes including a Joey. I read somewhere that the seatpost angle is 73 degree, a little steep for a touring bike, but not excessively so for most people. Mine is pushed back all the way on the Joey, maybe 6 - 8mm further than on my most relaxed tourer. I have seen photo's of Joeys with layback posts, either they take a standard size or there's a shim available, I assume they've forgone the centering notch as a compromise. How much of an inconvenience that is would depend on how you fold and how far the top section protrudes. For the train, I could get away just dropping the lower section. When looking for the smallest pack size, the post is coming out anyway. Have you asked Airnimal? It may be something they have experience of.
Hope you find the right saddle and get to enjoy your Joey, I like mine.

[MarcusT]

I mounted an Ergon SM, I too was expecting pure comfort, but after several hours of riding, it became a tad painful. Considering how much the saddle cost, I did not want to put it in the bin. I put gel cover on it and now, I can ride much longer.

[Brianjeff50]

What saddle works for you on other bikes? As you say it rides as close as a folder gets to a full size bike, I think your problems are compounded by not being able to tell if it's position, saddle or both, if you could change one for something you know works it would eliminate or confirm.
I use the same saddle (Brooks Cambian C17) on several bikes including a Joey. I read somewhere that the seatpost angle is 73 degree, a little steep for a touring bike, but not excessively so for most people. Mine is pushed back all the way on the Joey, maybe 6 - 8mm further than on my most relaxed tourer.

You’re right, it is saddle and position. And I think me getting older and weaker too.
I have an SMP Well (the one with the odd beak shape) on my Kinesis Racelight and had an elderly Brooks Professional on my old straight-bar Airnimal which came with the secondhand bike.
The SMP was very good but more recently I’ve become aware of perineal pressure from the nose as a ride has gone on; the Brooks was never very comfy, couldn’t go back far enough and also dug in.
I did a long five hour ride with the Ergon, tweaking the position a few times. By the end I had very aching hands from too much weight on them as well as a sore bum (red weal and sit bones that still feel bruised). Reminds me of being beaten for misdeeds at my old school 50+ years ago:)
Yes I might have a chat with Airnimal. I could lose the seatpost but it adds another element of faff to the folding.

[Brianjeff50]

I mounted an Ergon SM, I too was expecting pure comfort, but after several hours of riding, it became a tad painful. Considering how much the saddle cost, I did not want to put it in the bin. I put gel cover on it and now, I can ride much longer.

Mine won’t go in the bin but it might go on EBay.

[531colin]

My experiences with SMP saddles here viewtopic.php?t=150784&hilit=SMP
Dillglove the importer will lend you a test saddle.....but the surface of the test saddle was different to the ones i bought....all resolved now, I'm using 4 of them, but not all at once!
One degree steeper seat tube angle seems to equate to needing roughly 10mm more saddle setback for average male height.

[Brianjeff50]

My experiences with SMP saddles here viewtopic.php?t=150784&hilit=SMP
Dillglove the importer will lend you a test saddle.....but the surface of the test saddle was different to the ones i bought....all resolved now, I'm using 4 of them, but not all at once!
One degree steeper seat tube angle seems to equate to needing roughly 10mm more saddle setback for average male height.

Blimey I thought blokes’ nether regions were complicated enough - now there are bursas to think about.
It’s very tricky to pin down saddle issues: most minor tweaks feel better until they don’t. I can pretty much do your riding no hands test but sitting up rather than hunched forwards; I do think the saddle moving back would still help.
The Ergon feels hard but ok riding hard but I’m 75 so I can’t keep that up for long. I find more load going onto my hands and the saddle nose start to press into my crutch as my weight slumps forward more on a long ride. No numbness just aching discomfort.
I was also surprised to see post-ride that all my soreness was on my left buttock. Maybe I ride crookedly?
My aim is to do a full day’s ride and get off with only routine tiredness - and not dread putting my sore backside on the saddle the next day.

[531colin]

I like to be able to balance "no hands" in my "usual" hand position at my "usual" power output. I'm usually on the hoods, or these days on the bit of the bull-bars which substitutes for the hoods.
I think if you can't balance without sitting up a bit then you will have too much weight on your hands when on the hoods (or wherever). If you have to pedal like hell to stay up, the same applies.....pootling along, you get too much weight on your hands.

It all depends on power output....heres Steve Hogg doing it with real racing cyclists on the drops https://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/bi ... oad-bikes/

Previous discussion about riding lop-sided....viewtopic.php?t=59332
I find now if I concentrate, I can keep the bike upright. However, my tendency is to lean the bike more to the left as I get tired; i always got a bigger right bum bone dent in my old leather saddles.
I also found if I rode with the bike leant too much, my left calf would cramp, i think from holding the shoe against the limit of the SPD binding.

[Brianjeff50]

I like to be able to balance "no hands" in my "usual" hand position at my "usual" power output. I'm usually on the hoods, or these days on the bit of the bull-bars which substitutes for the hoods.
I think if you can't balance without sitting up a bit then you will have too much weight on your hands when on the hoods (or wherever). If you have to pedal like hell to stay up, the same applies.....pootling along, you get too much weight on your hands.

It all depends on power output....heres Steve Hogg doing it with real racing cyclists on the drops https://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/bi ... oad-bikes/

Previous discussion about riding lop-sided....viewtopic.php?t=59332
I find now if I concentrate, I can keep the bike upright. However, my tendency is to lean the bike more to the left as I get tired; i always got a bigger right bum bone dent in my old leather saddles.
I also found if I rode with the bike leant too much, my left calf would cramp, i think from holding the shoe against the limit of the SPD binding.

I should stop reading this - it’ll turn me into a bikeochondriac.

Seriously, fascinating stuff, very informative and helpful. I’ll do a bit more tinkering after my backside has recovered. I’ll likely try the SMP Well off my other bike - the longer rails might get me moved back enough.

[531colin]

I don't think you can beat a bit of bike tinkering.......each spring and autumn I get a little burst of tinkering as I get out the summer or winter bike, and it doesn't feel quite the same as the bike I have been riding!

[steelframe]

Worst, and this is obviously partly a bike issue, I can’t get it back far enough to get a fit and balance that feel correct without sliding myself over the back of the saddle.
What I need is a saddle comfortable on long rides, using the tops and drops, ideally with long rails to maximise adjustment

Regarding saddles with long Rails you could try out the Brompton stock saddle which many find surprisingly comfy. Another alternative would be a Selle Anatomica - very comfy leather saddle, also with long rails. Personally, I like saddles from Terry very much and they also do offer relatively long rails.

The issue is: Bums are very individual as are body dimensions. So there is no such thing as a perfect saddle for everyone, no shortcut to Rome and there's barely a way around testing various saddles until you find one you like.

The best option is probably finding someone who has the equipment to measure the pressure distribution with different saddles while you sit on it with your riding position. The outcome looks i.e. like this:



This needs a well equipped and competent bike fitter - typically they will also have something like the patria velo checker:



This way it is easy to find the riding position, stem length and saddle that you like best because you can try out a lot and fine tune w/o having to buy tons of stuff. Takes a couple of hours though and is usually not for free. Finding a competent fitter may be a bit of a challenge. Regarding saddles the differences are huge and the outer shape says barely anything. I.e. I did ride a leather selle anatomica for years and it turned out that in terms of pressure it was more or less identical to a certain Terry model (that is sadly no longer available now), that just from the looks should have been vastly different.

(Pics takes from the webpage of Junik / Juliane Neuss in Germany: https://junik-hpv.de/arbeitsbereiche/er ... fertigung/)

[pwa]

I don't rate Ergon stuff. My lack of respect for Ergon is based on my experiences with their expensive, well made and not very comfortable grips and bar ends for straight handlebars. I spent quite a lot on them before deciding that they don't work for me. They are tolerable with well padded mitts, so I haven't binned them, but they are not the comfort solution I hoped they would be. And they aren't even very ergonomic, contrary to the implied claim made by the brand name. So my expectation would have been that any saddle made by them would come with lots of very convincing explanation about how they have solved the comfort deficit of most saddles, followed by the reality of a saddle that isn't actually comfortable.

[Brianjeff50]

I thought the grips were okay - but then again my straight barred bike would have been improved by almost anything.

I’ve spent a week tinkering with the saddle position and it remains ruddy hard and not at all ergonomic.

[axel_knutt]

if you can't balance without sitting up a bit then you will have too much weight on your hands.....If you have to pedal like hell to stay up, the same applies

That's exactly my point.

If I sit upright enough to stop the bike accelerating when I let go of the bars I need a pair of reins to steer it with, and you can't fix that by adjusting the saddle or bars a few mm, it needs an upright bike like a Dutch tourer. To maintain the position I have without any weight on the bars I'd be putting over 300W into it, which is about 3-4 times the power I had the fitness for. By contrast, the full range of adjustment on the saddle changes the weight on the bars by all of 3%.

The need to counter the feeling of toppling forwards onto the bars also meant that I had a tendency to ride on my perineum instead of my sitbones, regardless of saddle position.