Artificial sweeteners

[a.twiddler]

"So, do you think that the other 90 odd countries which have approved aspartame are part of some heinous global plot, or have been duped? You selectively replied to my post, but haven't answered that."

I take it that the answer, which you supplied for a question directed to Biopace, is yes, then? No wonder you are harried, Gary.

[roubaixtuesday]

one has to ask, there does seem to be a worldwide increase in healthy young people having heart attacks or even dying.
...

Evidence, please.

Thanks

Jonathan

Oh surely, do you not read the news. It's one after another young person dropping down with heart problems or worse. I do wonder, as I said, it could be due to any number of causes. Whether it's steroids, or peptides, or bad diet, or increased pollution, or stress from how badly the tories are ruining the country leading to a feeling of impending doom and no hope for so many youngsters, something is behind the increase in ill health.

I went to a comprehensive, with another just 800 yards away. So just in my year I knew around 400 others. Other than the usual childhood problems, we didn't have anyone dropping dead playing sports. Broken bones used to be the highlight, someone with a cast would be the popular kid for a month at school. Kids disappearing because they had died, didn't happen in the 70s. Or so very very rarely that it was talked about for ages. In my year and either side, I knew of only one death in the 7 years at school, someone who fell and died from their injuries. Oh and only one kid ever got expelled in that time, for a knife in class. And only one teacher quit due to mental breakdown. We had to suffer the other rotters until they retired or relocated (though one did get sacked and barred around 10 years later...)

Though it's just occurred to me. As medical science helps people live longer, and perhaps have children when before, they might have died before getting married, maybe there is more inherited heart conditions around now than 100 years ago, so with more inherited ill health, plausible that then more children will be born with issues that cause illness later. I'm sure there are many angles to this.

Please post reputable evidence for the claimed increase in children "dropping dead".

Thanks

[axel_knutt]

Oh surely, do you not read the news. It's one after another young person dropping down with heart problems or worse.

I went to a comprehensive, with another just 800 yards away. So just in my year I knew around 400 others. Other than the usual childhood problems, we didn't have anyone dropping dead playing sports.

Incidence of sudden cardiac death in the UK is 500/year, so in a population of 400 you could expect to see one case every 300 years.

It seems SCD is mostly a genetic problem among South East Asians, who have a rate about 100 times ours.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudden_ar ... h_syndrome

[Biospace]

Despite arguing to do little more than shed more light on why there is such controversy surrounding Aspartame, one or two posters appear increasingly cross. Instead of engaging directly and likely only further inflaming the nature of the thread, I will simply draw attention to https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-66180986 and the points it makes about levels of consumption in children and the thousands of foods and drinks in which it's an ingredient.

The subject of the significant rise in excess and sudden deaths was introduced into the topic which would most likely be best discussed in a different thread, unless there is some suggestion that this rise in recent times is somehow related to use of artifical sweeteners.

The linked BBC article includes this graphic:

[harriedgary]

Incidence of sudden cardiac death in the UK is 500/year, so in a population of 400 you could expect to see one case every 300 years.

It seems SCD is mostly a genetic problem among South East Asians, who have a rate about 100 times ours.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudden_ar ... h_syndrome

indeed... over 300 years I'd expect perhaps slow cardiac death to occur in a few of those.

But honestly, I do feel like I'm the only fan of BBC news here. And almost every week there is a piece about some teenager somewhere in the country who has been taken seriously ill or died. Maybe everyone else needs to start looking, or just shrug their shoulders and say nothing to do with us guv.

But me, I am concerned that if either diet, or other aspects of modern living are causing increased death and serious ill health rates in the younger population, then who is gonna be around to wheel me to shops and back when I'm 99?

[roubaixtuesday]

Incidence of sudden cardiac death in the UK is 500/year, so in a population of 400 you could expect to see one case every 300 years.

It seems SCD is mostly a genetic problem among South East Asians, who have a rate about 100 times ours.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudden_ar ... h_syndrome

indeed... over 300 years I'd expect perhaps slow cardiac death to occur in a few of those.

But honestly, I do feel like I'm the only fan of BBC news here. And almost every week there is a piece about some teenager somewhere in the country who has been taken seriously ill or died. Maybe everyone else needs to start looking, or just shrug their shoulders and say nothing to do with us guv.

But me, I am concerned that if either diet, or other aspects of modern living are causing increased death and serious ill health rates in the younger population, then who is gonna be around to wheel me to shops and back when I'm 99?

Do you have any reputable evidence for an increase in teenage deaths?

Or their attributed causes?

[axel_knutt]

Do you have any reputable evidence for an increase in teenage deaths?

I doubt he's controlled for changing fashions in news reporting.

[mjr]

It was a diversion from the subject of this thread, but it's always concerning to see anyone relying on Campbell as an authority. I warned this community about this early in the outbreak.

Here's his Wikipedia page: "John Campbell (YouTuber)"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Campbell_(YouTuber)

Why that article? Why not other articles? What questions did you think that article addresses?

It's always concerning to see anyone relying on Wikipedia as an authority. I warned this community about this years ago but can't be bothered to check that I really did and give any link(!)

Not that I like John Campbell. I find him only slightly less irritating than the poor posting style of some on this board.

[roubaixtuesday]

It was a diversion from the subject of this thread, but it's always concerning to see anyone relying on Campbell as an authority. I warned this community about this early in the outbreak.

Here's his Wikipedia page: "John Campbell (YouTuber)"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Campbell_(YouTuber)

Why that article? Why not other articles? What questions did you think that article addresses?

It's always concerning to see anyone relying on Wikipedia as an authority. I warned this community about this years ago but can't be bothered to check that I really did and give any link(!)

Not that I like John Campbell. I find him only slightly less irritating than the poor posting style of some on this board.

Does the preceding part of your post conform to "good posting style"?

[mjr]

Does the preceding part of your post conform to "good posting style"?

Hell, no. I'm no saint and have few qualms about toasting people wielding debate-flamethrowers when the moderators fail to stop them (the post I replied to was from last week when I reported a few for not being "polite, civil, friendly and reasoned"). It would be unreasonable for them to object to what they seem to be believe is an acceptable style.

[Biospace]

...
But honestly, I do feel like I'm the only fan of BBC news here. And almost every week there is a piece about some teenager somewhere in the country who has been taken seriously ill or died. Maybe everyone else needs to start looking, or just shrug their shoulders and say nothing to do with us guv.
...

Do you have any reputable evidence for an increase in teenage deaths?

Or their attributed causes?

All-age excess deaths have been reported as running very high, https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64209221

Anecdotally, earlier this year the local funeral director said that he's never known it so busy in all his career, over many months. He remarked that after a 'pandemic' in which so many tens of thousands died of or with a novel virus, the expectation would be for excess deaths to be well under average for a good while.

From https://www.euromomo.eu/graphs-and-maps ... -mortality, which highlights deaths in the 0-14yo range rather than teens,

I've not heard of any official attribution to these deaths, although problems in the NHS have been mentioned which will account for some, but it's not just Britain which is experiencing this long run of excess death.

[Biospace]

Ongoing research, https://newsroom.clevelandclinic.org/20 ... arch-finds

Cleveland Clinic researchers have been studying the effects of the sugar substitute “erythritol” on the body.

And what they previously found is that it could put a person at risk for cardiovascular events, like a heart attack or stroke.

Since then, they’ve conducted another study to confirm those findings.

"In this new study, what we did is we directly compared drinking a sweetened drink with either 30 grams of glucose, which is sugar, or 30 grams of erythritol. And what was seen is in every subject, who looking at before versus after drinking the erythritol, every platelet functional measure made was significantly enhanced,” explained Stanley Hazen, MD, PhD, cardiology specialist for Cleveland Clinic. “So, there is every reason to believe that after drinking erythritol, there is a heightened risk of clotting, or thrombosis, but that was not seen with the glucose.

He notes their research is ongoing, but they have found similar trends with other sugar substitutes."

https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/abs/10. ... 124.321019

In natural form, 'sugar alcohol' is found in small amounts in watermelon and pears.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erythritol

[Psamathe]

Ongoing research, https://newsroom.clevelandclinic.org/20 ... arch-finds

Cleveland Clinic researchers have been studying the effects of the sugar substitute “erythritol” on the body.

And what they previously found is that it could put a person at risk for cardiovascular events, like a heart attack or stroke.

Since then, they’ve conducted another study to confirm those findings.

"In this new study, what we did is we directly compared drinking a sweetened drink with either 30 grams of glucose, which is sugar, or 30 grams of erythritol. And what was seen is in every subject, who looking at before versus after drinking the erythritol, every platelet functional measure made was significantly enhanced,” explained Stanley Hazen, MD, PhD, cardiology specialist for Cleveland Clinic. “So, there is every reason to believe that after drinking erythritol, there is a heightened risk of clotting, or thrombosis, but that was not seen with the glucose.

He notes their research is ongoing, but they have found similar trends with other sugar substitutes."

https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/abs/10. ... 124.321019

In natural form, 'sugar alcohol' is found in small amounts in watermelon and pears.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erythritol

I wonder how much one can actually generalise their results eg whilst Erythritol is a sugar alcohol, there are lots of other sugar alcohols that are not Erythritol. eg does the same apply to Isomalt?

And then we get into complex analysis about lest harm and inappropriate use. Like vaping, whilst vaping likely has many harmful effects when used to help stop smoking cigarettes vaping is a net benefit. So whilst artificial sweeteners might be "harmful", do they help people address medically damaging excess weight so in that situation might they have a net benefit.

Ian

[Biospace]

I wonder how much one can actually generalise their results eg whilst Erythritol is a sugar alcohol, there are lots of other sugar alcohols that are not Erythritol. eg does the same apply to Isomalt?

And then we get into complex analysis about lest harm and inappropriate use. Like vaping, whilst vaping likely has many harmful effects when used to help stop smoking cigarettes vaping is a net benefit. So whilst artificial sweeteners might be "harmful", do they help people address medically damaging excess weight so in that situation might they have a net benefit.

Ian

Not if increase in body weight is used as an indicator! Clearly there will be some who have used sugar substitutes and lost weight, but as far as I can tell it's simply a means of the food industry increasing the size of its profits.

[briansnail]

UK and Europe always had more stringent legislation than USA with regard to additives.In USA lobby groups are to powerful.