Cycling UK Forum

Cowsham wrote: ↑14 Jul 2023, 11:17pm

Jdsk wrote: ↑14 Jul 2023, 9:11pm "While it is true that you can’t have your driving licence endorsed with penalty points because of an offence committed on a bicycle, it’s often overlooked that the court does have a general power under the Power of Criminal Courts (Sentencing) Act 2000 to disqualify anyone from driving, without imposing penalty points, for any offence, including a cycling offence."
https://www.cyclinguk.org/article/whats ... -your-bike

Jonathan

Does that mean they either have to disqualify him or not give him any penalty points at all ? Sounds like it's one or the other.

That's the advice from the lawyer, replying to a question in Cycle, linked in the first reply in this thread. Though that also reply says "The courts
would need to have a ‘sufficient reason’ for the disqualification"

Can someone enlighten me how two people who commit the same offence riding a bike would be punished fairly if one cyclist didn't have a licence?

I doubt it, but I’m understanding that the offence committed while cycling would have to be quite enormous for a person to “lose their license” for it.

Now that I’ve got my head around what the law actually says, I’m itching to know exactly which offence the OP was charged with “on the ground”, and what charge the notice through the post mentions.

There are two ancillary powers of disqualification, s163 (any vehicle) is the one that we're discussing
https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/ex ... ral-power/
The CPS give examples that all pre-date the 2020 Act, but substitute "pedal cycle" for "car" (ignoring the breath test example) and this is envisaged to deal with drivers/riders who use their vehicle in a particularly serious way. It isn't aimed at red traffic light jumping on a bike
https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/s ... orders#a29

As far as the OP is concerned, get the advice of a solicitor. If it is the wrong charge then the Court may kick the whole thing out

Nearholmer wrote: ↑15 Jul 2023, 7:37am I doubt it, but I’m understanding that the offence committed while cycling would have to be quite enormous for a person to “lose their license” for it.

Now that I’ve got my head around what the law actually says, I’m itching to know exactly which offence the OP was charged with “on the ground”, and what charge the notice through the post mentions.

On the letter it says ‘reported by police whilst using vehicle PEDAL CYLE for the alleged offence Drive on road other than motorway, fail to comply with red / green arrow lane closure light signals’

Ultimately, there seems to be a discrepancy between what the OP was told - or thought they had been told - by the reporting officer and what they eventually received through the post. The only way to resolve this is to read all the documents they have received. Pronto.

My guess - and it amounts to nothing more - is that at some point in the processing of the fixed penalty - the details have been mistakenly recorded as though a motor vehicle were involved.
========================================
PS Others typing faster than me. I think the act and section is still important

Oh and ‘on the ground’ it was a bit of a bizarre conversation. He stopped me for the red light jumping. We had a conversation and he took my details. Told me it would be a £50 through the post and no points on my license. Then he cautioned me then said I could go. Not sure why he did the caution right at the end or at all really.

Brixton23 wrote: ↑15 Jul 2023, 8:07am Oh and ‘on the ground’ it was a bit of a bizarre conversation. He stopped me for the red light jumping. We had a conversation and he took my details. Told me it would be a £50 through the post and no points on my license. Then he cautioned me then said I could go. Not sure why he did the caution right at the end or at all really.

This is one reason why the paperwork is so important: it's certain

Were you issued with a ‘ticket’ on the ground?

(I don’t know whether you are supposed to be, just curious)

I could see how this could warrant endorsement of a vehicle licence if the bicycle was motorised, the speed was excessive and/or the circumstances were such that other parties were endangered. The OP doesn’t go into detail.

Brixton23 wrote: ↑15 Jul 2023, 8:05am ...
On the letter it says ‘reported by police whilst using vehicle PEDAL CYLE for the alleged offence Drive on road other than motorway, fail to comply with red / green arrow lane closure light signals’

Please could you show us an image of the letter. Obscure your name, address etc if you want.

Thanks

Jonathan

francovendee wrote: ↑15 Jul 2023, 7:20am Can someone enlighten me how two people who commit the same offence riding a bike would be punished fairly if one cyclist didn't have a licence?

I see the logical problem, but it's just how it turn out in the messy world. I'd guess that the most common example is unlawful driving and similar without a licence... with a licence points could be added, without one they can't.

Jonathan

Brixton23 wrote: ↑15 Jul 2023, 8:05am
On the letter it says ‘reported by police whilst using vehicle PEDAL CYLE for the alleged offence Drive on road other than motorway, fail to comply with red / green arrow lane closure light signals’

My interpretation of that is the offence of "failing to comply with traffic signs" which is contrary to section 36 Road Traffic Act 1988. NB This only applies to certain traffic signs designated in regulations made under that Act. Most traffic lights are covered and carry "totting-up" points when committed by the driver of a motor vehicle. Apart from speed detection cameras, "fail to comply" is probably the most common offence subject to camera enforcement. As I have already posted, penalties and more are set out in schedule 2

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/53/schedule/2

Scroll down to the s 36 offence and the "disqualification" column (5) has this

Discretionary, if committed in respect of a motor vehicle by failure to comply with an indication given by a sign specified for the purposes of this paragraph in regulations under RTA section 36

.

Coulmn 6 "Endorsement" has

Obligatory if committed as described in column 5.

Column 7 specifies the "totting up" points as 3

Does "Obligatory if committed as described in column 5" mean it is optional if not as described in column 5 (which mentions the offence being committed in respect of a motor vehicle), or would points not apply at all?