Cycling UK Forum

Jdsk wrote: ↑15 Jul 2023, 8:54am

francovendee wrote: ↑15 Jul 2023, 7:20am Can someone enlighten me how two people who commit the same offence riding a bike would be punished fairly if one cyclist didn't have a licence?

I see the logical problem, but it's just how it turn out in the messy world. I'd guess that the most common example is unlawful driving and similar without a licence... with a licence points could be added, without one they can't.

Jonathan

Jonathan this answer doesn't answer FrancovenDees question or even make sense.

Fran has a very good point though and I think it's partly answered by the fact you can get points on a non existing licence ie before you even get a provisional.

You can get 3 to 6 points on your future licence but if you subsequently get more while doing your training on a provisional or after you pass within 2 years you can lose your new licence. ( from what I can understand I could be wrong )

Saying that I still think Fran has a valid point. What if the cyclist has no intention of ever having a car licence ? He'll have points in lieu towards a future one but that's irrelevant to him although it's a big deal to Brixton. Surely that can't be fair?

I'm not sure if it's me, but we seem to have different contexts going on in the thread...
Granted that it's old information, but I don't think that the bottom line has changed, "...you can’t have your driving licence endorsed with penalty points because of an offence committed on a bicycle"
You can be disqualified from driving in serious circumstances https://www.cyclinguk.org/article/whats ... -your-bike

The disqualification bit is dealt with on p2 viewtopic.php?p=1785189#p1785189

Does "Obligatory if committed as described in column 5" mean it is optional if not as described in column 5 (which mentions the offence being committed in respect of a motor vehicle), or would points not apply at all?

If you're driving a motor vehicle then disqualification is discretionary, i.e optional. If you're driving a motor vehicle then endorsement, i.e. points (or reference to disqualification if given), is mandatory

Jdsk wrote: ↑15 Jul 2023, 8:52am

Brixton23 wrote: ↑15 Jul 2023, 8:05am ...
On the letter it says ‘reported by police whilst using vehicle PEDAL CYLE for the alleged offence Drive on road other than motorway, fail to comply with red / green arrow lane closure light signals’

Please could you show us an image of the letter. Obscure your name, address etc if you want.

Thanks

Jonathan

Here you go

Thankyou

Jonathan

Nearholmer wrote: ↑15 Jul 2023, 8:16am Were you issued with a ‘ticket’ on the ground?

(I don’t know whether you are supposed to be, just curious)

No. He just took my details, checked them and then said I’d get a letter.

peetee wrote: ↑15 Jul 2023, 8:28am I could see how this could warrant endorsement of a vehicle licence if the bicycle was motorised, the speed was excessive and/or the circumstances were such that other parties were endangered. The OP doesn’t go into detail.

Normal pedal bike, cycling slowly, left turn across empty pedestrian crossing into an empty bus lane.

@Brixton23

I don't know for sure but I doubt the fixed penalty computer systems are internally consistent. By that, I mean that I doubt if there's anything in the IT which picks up errors, inconsistencies etc. I'll reiterate I don't know but I doubt the IT system would pick up what I'd call textual inconsistencies, so long as the acceptable codes were entered. If I'm right, then you could end up with a conviction involving "driving a motor vehicle, namely a pedal cycle." , It might be driving a motor vehicle, namely a dromedary for all I know

Checking my link to schedule 2 of the Road Traffic (Offenders) Act 1988 I see the maximum fine for a s36 offence is Level 3 (£1,000 ?) without difference for type of vehicle.

In layman's terms a fixed penalty for a criminal offence is an opportunity to pay the penalty without the hassle of going to court. The police or other enforcement agency issue the notice but the relevant court enforces it.

Things have changed a lot since Ernest Marples introduced totting up but the changes have mainly streamlined enforcement. If you are wrongly penalised there are ways to get errors rectified, but for most of us they are a last resort.

And tempus fugit

PS More posts faster than I can type.

That notice is an offer and may be generic. I'd go to a solicitor while you still have time to query the possibility of penalty points

tim-b wrote: ↑15 Jul 2023, 11:01am That notice is an offer and may be generic. I'd go to a solicitor while you still have time to query the possibility of penalty points

Me too.

OP: Do you have access to legal advice through an association, union, insurance policy etc?

Jonathan

Does seem harsh. The notice explicity says PEDAL CYCLE so not obviously an admin error. As a CUK member, I'd look for legal advice via member's benefit phone line, and if not a member I'd probably go to a solicitor anyway.

There’s little good that can be said about this prosecution and the Met don’t cover themselves in glory with it …

The pragmatic course of action is to pay the fine and accept the points, they simply have nothing to do with justice and it’s just a machine churning out results … Shame on the Constable really - surely applying some common sense and a quiet word would have been so much better - but he’s perhaps got targets to manage / meet.

If the OP chooses the court route then it will likely cost him quite a lot of money and time, and then there’s no guarantee that the case will be thrown out - common sense doesn’t necessarily always apply. If he chooses the court route then he’ll need a Solicitor and getting one should now be his course of action - consultation costs might be more than the fine … The CPS might decide that the case isn’t worth their attention and if they do decide to proceed then a Solicitor’s letter might prompt a change of mind.

Justice is, to some extent, available to those with time and plenty of money. That’s life and the OP has choices to make - how much time and money is this worth to him.

The letter looks like a pre set format which someone adds the relevant detail and I suspect the gap for vehicle is where the vehicle registration would normally go.
I would definitely check this with a legal expert of some sort as others have suggested

My reading of it is:

- that the offence is one that could legitimately be applied, although I think they could have chosen to apply a different, cycling specific, offence instead; and,

- [corrected after re-reading the schedule] the penalties are a fine, irrespective of the vehicle involved, disqualification from driving (this is discretionary, and only applies in the case of a motor vehicle), and endorsements (quite hard to follow the scope of application, but it refers back to the previous column in a way which I now think means it can only be applied in the case of motor vehicles).

Ask them nicely to review and correct it, and if they quibble ……

Consult a lawyer.

It does look like the OP should have got a FPN of a fine of £50 and no penalty points:
https://offencecode.uk/offence/ride-a-p ... ffic-sign/

But ended up with a FPN relating to driving a motor vehicle, with a bigger fine and points:
https://offencecode.uk/offence/drive-on ... ht-signal/

There may be a possibility that the OP could contact the issuing authority e.g. the police officer or their station, and try and resolve the matter. There's been previous posts on here (relating to pavement cycling) where that has been done.

Sum wrote: ↑15 Jul 2023, 11:37am It does look like the OP should have got a FPN of a fine of £50 and no penalty points:
https://offencecode.uk/offence/ride-a-p ... ffic-sign/

But ended up with a FPN relating to driving a motor vehicle, with a bigger fine and points:
https://offencecode.uk/offence/drive-on ... ht-signal/

There may be a possibility that the OP could contact the issuing authority e.g. the police officer or their station, and try and resolve the matter. There's been previous posts on here (relating to pavement cycling) where that has been done.

Bingo! To the extent you can believe anything, that seems to confirm my analysis.

Obviously, if the OP has access to some form of legal help eg through a trades union, there's no point in keeping a dog and barking yourself. Otherwise, I'd recommend taking this up in writing with the office (ie not the officer) which issued that enforcement notice, keeping a close eye on the clock.

I refer to your letter (reference xxx) dated and I would request that you check if the details of the penalty are correct.

In particular, the "totting up" points specified for this offence set out in schedule 2 of the Road Traffic (Offenders) Act 1988 quoted in your letter seem to be restricted to the users of motor vehicles (ie not pedal cycles.)

The officer who issued the fixed penalty mentioned a penalty of £50 and reassured me that this did not attract a driving licence endorsement. That advice seems to be confirmed by the online PNLD database, although I appreciate that this is not an official source used by the Metropolitan Police.

I have unsuccessfully sought clarification by telephone.