Cycling UK Forum

thirdcrank wrote: ↑15 Jul 2023, 12:25pm

Sum wrote: ↑15 Jul 2023, 11:37am It does look like the OP should have got a FPN of a fine of £50 and no penalty points:
https://offencecode.uk/offence/ride-a-p ... ffic-sign/

But ended up with a FPN relating to driving a motor vehicle, with a bigger fine and points:
https://offencecode.uk/offence/drive-on ... ht-signal/

There may be a possibility that the OP could contact the issuing authority e.g. the police officer or their station, and try and resolve the matter. There's been previous posts on here (relating to pavement cycling) where that has been done.

Bingo! To the extent you can believe anything, that seems to confirm my analysis.

Obviously, if the OP has access to some form of legal help eg through a trades union, there's no point in keeping a dog and barking yourself. Otherwise, I'd recommend taking this up in writing with the office (ie not the officer) which issued that enforcement notice, keeping a close eye on the clock.

I refer to your letter (reference xxx) dated and I would request that you check if the details of the penalty are correct.

In particular, the "totting up" points specified for this offence set out in schedule 2 of the Road Traffic (Offenders) Act 1988 quoted in your letter seem to be restricted to the users of motor vehicles (ie not pedal cycles.)

The officer who issued the fixed penalty mentioned a penalty of £50 and reassured me that this did not attract a driving licence endorsement. That advice seems to be confirmed by the online PNLD database, although I appreciate that this is not an official source used by the Metropolitan Police.

I have unsuccessfully sought clarification by telephone.

Yes I think there has been an error in that the wrong generic form or offer form has been used by whoever filed or issued the offence. I can't see anywhere in the Road Traffic Act 1988 or any revisions that mention that penalty points a available to the law as a punishment and also could only find £50 fine for jumping the lights. Something has went wrong here.

Schedule 2 of the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 is where to look.

Don't expect any random person you speak to in the organisation to know the finer points of road traffic law. I once had to explain to a Procurator Fiscal depute why the circumstances I had charged someone for constitued an offence under the law following a reportable accident.

I agree with the suggestion above that the wrohg code on the system somewhere is the likely cause. Code for motor vehicle offence. Just need to find someone who knows what they are doing to sort it.

Oh. And. Telling the OPto go to court is a cop out. If you are being offered the incorrect penalty and nobody is willing to correct the error I'd be considering a complaint. We all make mistakes but should correct them when they are pointed out.

Brixton23 wrote: ↑14 Jul 2023, 3:12pm Thanks everyone. Yes I’ve done some more reading and from what I can see there is no provision in law for penalty points for cycling offences. I tried to query it with the met police but was told just to contest it in court. I will write to them to say I will be doing this… seems a bit ridiculous to go to court as it’s an administrative error but doesn’t look like there is any other way.

HTH can you get points on a driving licence what if you didn't have one ?

irc wrote: ↑15 Jul 2023, 1:36pm
I agree with the suggestion above that the wrohg code on the system somewhere is the likely cause. Code for motor vehicle offence. Just need to find someone who knows what they are doing to sort it.

Oh. And. Telling the OPto go to court is a cop out. If you are being offered the incorrect penalty and nobody is willing to correct the error I'd be considering a complaint. We all make mistakes but should correct them when they are pointed out.

Yes I think I know what went wrong -- that's a form for motorized vehicles that the officer has used.

When to put "CJS Offence Code: RT88975" into Google the form you get as posted above is worded exactly as the letter Brixton got but I think the field that should have had the vehicle make model and index number in ( licence plate I'd assume ) just has pedal cycle in it.

The computer would then generate a letter with that info on but with no licence number there would be no licence to endorse.

Did you try contacting the office that issued the letter?

ie -- Met prosecutions processing service.


NB. Most of this post is just reaffirming what thirdcrank, irc and especially Sum have said already -- I think it's pretty obvious the wrong form has been used thanks to "Sum."

Jdsk wrote: ↑15 Jul 2023, 8:54am

francovendee wrote: ↑15 Jul 2023, 7:20am Can someone enlighten me how two people who commit the same offence riding a bike would be punished fairly if one cyclist didn't have a licence?

I see the logical problem, but it's just how it turn out in the messy world. I'd guess that the most common example is unlawful driving and similar without a licence... with a licence points could be added, without one they can't.

Jonathan

It seems there may be an administrative error and you'd not get points on your licence.

If the law meant that you did then it would be grossly unfair and not just a quirk in a messy system.

One way would be to issue all cyclists with a licence to cycle but I suspect very few would welcome this.

You don't need a driving licence to get points on it. But that's not the problem here AIUI, which is through what looks like an administrative error, the OP is being treated as though they were driving a motor car when they were riding a pedal cycle.

The need is to get the progress to date reviewed by somebody with the training/knowledge/insight to see what's apparently gone wrong and with the authority to correct it.

Once upon a time there was a Road Traffic Act which was occasionally revised - RTA 1960 "when I was a lad." The RTA 1988, which has grown greatly over the years came with a sibling - the Road Traffic (Offenders) Act 1988 - dealing with procedures, and which has also mushroomed.

The need is to separate the relevant stuff from the irrelevant. imo

yakdiver wrote: ↑14 Jul 2023, 4:29pm A 19 year old on an escooter got 6 points on his licence in Southampton the other week

Due to the way the law was forked for the escooter trials they are largely treated as motor vehicles with relaxations and very different to pedal bikes (including EAPCs). As such you can be breathalysed on such an escooter, incur points and so on.

Obviously if it's a non trial escooter then they are still essentially motor vehicles with no such relaxations so if that were the case then 6pts seems light given you'd be racking up multiple possible offenses, including no insurance etc.

st599_uk wrote: ↑14 Jul 2023, 3:13pm Presumably you're in the UK?

It's certainly the case in other countries that offences commited on a bike add points to your driving licence, e.g. Germany.

Yes, I can confirm that from personal experience. I crossed at a red pedestrian light obscured by a stationary lorry and was spotted by a passing police car crew. One point (old scale) in Flensburg plus a small fine and admin costs.

Brixton23 wrote: ↑14 Jul 2023, 1:23pm I got caught cycling through a red light on my bike (left turn across an empty pedestrian crossing but fair enough I broke the law). The officer who stopped me said I would receive a £50 fine and no points on my license…I’ve now received a letter saying it’s £100 and 3 points on my license. Surely you can’t get points on your driving license for a cycling offence ? Can’t find definitive information on this though. Does anyone have any experience this?

Do you think cars should just get a £100 fine aswell ?

Brixton23 wrote: ↑14 Jul 2023, 1:23pm I got caught cycling through a red light on my bike (left turn across an empty pedestrian crossing but fair enough I broke the law). The officer who stopped me said I would receive a £50 fine and no points on my license…I’ve now received a letter saying it’s £100 and 3 points on my license. Surely you can’t get points on your driving license for a cycling offence ? Can’t find definitive information on this though. Does anyone have any experience this?

You should get the same punishment no matter what you ride or drive, especially on a bicycle as they do it all the time due to having no licence plates.

francovendee wrote: ↑15 Jul 2023, 7:20am Can someone enlighten me how two people who commit the same offence riding a bike would be punished fairly if one cyclist didn't have a licence?

It isn't fair. Cyclists without a licence should either have the points put on a licence when they get one or fined alot more to makeup for not getting points, and banned from cycling it they do it 4 times.

jrs665 wrote: ↑20 Jul 2023, 10:23am

Brixton23 wrote: ↑14 Jul 2023, 1:23pm I got caught cycling through a red light on my bike (left turn across an empty pedestrian crossing but fair enough I broke the law). The officer who stopped me said I would receive a £50 fine and no points on my license…I’ve now received a letter saying it’s £100 and 3 points on my license. Surely you can’t get points on your driving license for a cycling offence ? Can’t find definitive information on this though. Does anyone have any experience this?

Do you think cars should just get a £100 fine aswell ?

Fining cars which are inanimate objects would be futile and it would be impossible to put points on their non-existent driving licences. (As Chief Dan Mathews used to say "Remember, folks it's not the car that kills - it's the driver.")

My only reason for posting this is to urge people to keep on topic ie how to respond to a fixed penalty notice which appears to have been sent outside the terms of the system. If this has happened to one cyclist it may happen to others and the suggested option of going to court isn't really an option at all and might result in a pyrrhic victory.

If we can accrue points on our driving licences for offences commited whilst cycling, presumably that means we can also receive a driving ban if we get caught doing the same non-driving offence repeatedly. Although this is unlikely, it would seem to indicate the theoretical possibility of being banned from driving for offences commited on a bicycle, but remaining free to use a bicycle. After all, banned drivers are sometimes taunted with jibes about having to get a pushbike. The law is a curious and not altogether rational thing.

I give in.