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Steady but too slow

Posted: 15 Aug 2023, 1:22pm
by smillsj
I have been riding all my life (59 years of age) and have been over the Alps, sportives etc. I can never do a ride averaging over 15mph. My running is much better and my upper body strength is pretty good and I can regularly do 40 press ups. My friend who does much less training and has a BMI of at least 5 more than me, beats me up every climb and every flat, comfortably. I have very little in the way of leg muscles but there have been lots of cyclists such as Chris Froome who are similar. I also climb out of the saddle more that anyone else I know. I find it very difficult to push myself cycling except later in the day when my legs feel completely warmed up. I also struggle to get my heart rate very high.

How can I improve this? Is it just squats, lunges etc?

Re: Steady but too slow

Posted: 15 Aug 2023, 1:41pm
by PH
I recognise that! I'm happy riding all day everyday but don't even get close to a 15mph average.
I made the effort about ten years ago, with a gym coach, and upped my average from 12 to 15mph, but then let it slide. Some of the gym work was leg presses, mostly it was general HIT. Spinning classes were also good, you'd think as a cyclist you could do that on a bike, but IMO it's impossible to ride with the same intensity. Then, out on the road, I cut the mileage right down and just put more effort in, plus hill repeats. Then of course weight, the less there is, the easier it is, that might not be an issue for you, it is for me! The coach was a little shocked at the mileage I'd been doing, in their opinion it wouldn't have been possible to increase performance without reducing it, intensity first , then duration.
It is a lot of effort, that's why I let it slide, I had a great year or two, my fastest Audax rides, a great high mileage tour, flying up the hills (Comparatively). I don't remember making a decision to stop trying so hard, but neither do I have any desire to repeat it, I've just settled for enjoying being out on the bike.
Good luck

Re: Steady but too slow

Posted: 15 Aug 2023, 3:42pm
by mattheus
In what way is "your running much better"? You mean your heavy mate doesn't beat you? Or you meet some magic metrics better?
What HRs do you see when running (compared to cycling)?

Re: Steady but too slow

Posted: 15 Aug 2023, 5:14pm
by gbnz
smillsj wrote: 15 Aug 2023, 1:22pm I have been riding all my life (59 years of age) and have been over the Alps, sportives etc. I can never do a ride averaging over 15mph. My running is much better and my upper body strength is pretty good and I can regularly do 40 press ups. My friend who does much less training and has a BMI of at least 5 more than me, beats me up every climb and every flat, comfortably. I have very little in the way of leg muscles but there have been lots of cyclists such as Chris Froome who are similar. I also climb out of the saddle more that anyone else I know. I find it very difficult to push myself cycling except later in the day when my legs feel completely warmed up. I also struggle to get my heart rate very high.

How can I improve this? Is it just squats, lunges etc?
The ratio between effort, fitness and speed tend to be fairly well defined. If your heart rate is low when exercising, it's probably the case you aren't putting sufficient effort in, in relation to your cardio vascular fitness levels. Likewise if leg muscles haven't developed after years of cycling specific exercise, it's probably the case you aren't putting sufficient effort in to result in the development of larger muscles.

If you're sure you want to improve it?

- Take your existing bike or the one you want to ride and push the pace. Personally I'd set an appropriate mileage relative to your existing fitness levels, could by 5, 25 or 50 miles, set the speed you'll ride it at could be 10 mph or 20moh, if you use a Heart Rate Monitor set the HRM you'll ride at and then ride it at least once very 72 hours
- Worth remembering that a 48 to 96 hour break is worth it post ride, to give muscle time to recover and develop
- And a suitable diet with adequate levels of good quality protein is essential

It's a good 16 years since I've trained on the bike. But used to find a quick 20 miles before or after work, at a minimal 20mph, 4-5 times a week, c/w a minimal protein intake of 150g in a 24 hour period made a difference. Was surprised two years back, the difference only counting the quality protein from dairy, meat, fish etc, made a difference. Had always naively presumed that adequate protein including all that from vegetable sources would be ok, however even though I no longer train, muscle development was obvious on better quality protein

Re: Steady but too slow

Posted: 15 Aug 2023, 5:19pm
by gbnz
smillsj wrote: 15 Aug 2023, 1:22pm

How can I improve this? Is it just squats, lunges etc?
Additional forms of exercise can help. But if the primary aim is to improve cycling performance, have to admit I'd concentrate on the bike (Nb. Was a 4-5 gym workouts a week, find even 2-3 workouts can help. I.e. Haven't "trained on the bike for years", so find that even 45 cardio at a suitable HRM, 2 to 3 times a week, does keep cardio vascular fitness levels ok).

Loved swimming, but while 1000 lengths 2-3 times a week will have helped, it wasn't cycling speciifc

Re: Steady but too slow

Posted: 16 Aug 2023, 1:26pm
by Gearoidmuar
The most effective training for cycling is volume. Easy and often, every day if possible. How do I know this? I'm cycling for more than 40y and I tried every kind of training. Nothing beat an easy cycle tour for gaining fitness.
When I was about 40 there was a 42 mile route I used to ride hard. No matter how hard I trained, I couldn't get more than 18.5mph on it. After a two week tour, I could do 20.75mph. Volume was the difference, doing close to 500m easy in a week.
I stopped pushing myself in my mid-forties and am now 73. I cycle easy and as the roads around here are hilly, 12mph average would be hard.
After broken ribs years ago, I'd 8weeks off cycling till I could cycle. As an experiment I did about 15 miles a day, effortless, for 10 days and took three days off. I then went on a hard hilly ride with friends in far West Cork, going over the Healy Pass etc. To my astonishment I was really fit after my ultra-easy training.

Re: Steady but too slow

Posted: 16 Aug 2023, 2:12pm
by mattheus
Gearoidmuar wrote: 16 Aug 2023, 1:26pm The most effective training for cycling is volume.
I believe the science shows different individuals respond differently.

That's partly why the starter post is so difficult to analyse!

Re: Steady but too slow

Posted: 16 Aug 2023, 10:57pm
by harriedgary
as some others have said, everyone is different, so I'd recommend you save up the spondoolies to see a degree qualified sports coach, NOT a gym coach, there is a big big difference (gym coaches can call themselves a gym coach after a one year part time course (or even a few weeks with some courses) ) I'm afraid based on experience, that the majority of gym coaches or trainers might know how to shout at people, but their understanding beyond the muscles in the arm, is limited to boxercise classes.

You, for your body type need a bit of what everyone has suggested :) maybe. You may have heard of the terms ectomorpth etc applied to body building discussions. You sound possibly like an ectomorpth. Such people don't naturally build bulky muscle but are good at endurance. But whatever you are, your endurance levels are partly set by training.

Doing HIIT is a very good way for quite a lot of people to improve their endurance, and their power, it worked on me. But it takes real effort, gut busting effort, so isn't recommended for unhealthy people, or lightly trained people. You need, as someone said, to build your base fitness up. But you say you're a good runner, which is confusing, slightly, or not, as to run well, must mean you're fit already.

Running is different to cycling. If you over the years have excelled at running, and finding it easy, then unwittingly you have trained your body to be a runner, not a cyclist. I'm envious of world class triathletes like the Brownlee Brothers, they're better at all the three disciplines, than I am at just one. But they are the extreme. Most of us have to focus on one thing.

If you want to be better at cycling, then you have to push yourself as a cyclist, and probably let some running fitness slide a bit.
I'm wondering, how good is your cycling position.
That is one reason why runners can struggle to post good cycling times, if you sit like garden shed in the wind. At typical running speed 8 to 12 mph, the air resistance is much lower than cycling at 16 to 20 mph. It might also be that when on the bike, your body isn't used to higher exertion while being bent up a bit. Your stomach tends to be a bit squashed which restricts a little more, your breathing. And if you perceive yourself to be getting out of breath, you mentally slow yourself down, because we're programmed not to like being hypoxic.

To people in general, if you're having problems getting from average cyclist to good amateur speeds, there are several links in the power transmission you need to check over. When we're young we can run on almost any fuel at all, but quality fuel makes it easier. Not just for the usual reasons, but that the internal energy transfer process is far more complicated than school biology 101. There are multiple steps in the process from food in, to muscle movement, and while we can feel out of breath and assume that our lungs are the problem, that's a quirk of the human body sometimes. It's actually the efficiency of the energy transfer system that dictates our power, for most of us. And that system can become tied and sluggish, ultimately leading to diabetes in some cases. It need training, which means focus on meal quality, and timing in relation to exercise. Get the fuel right, and the training right, then any fit person should be able to cycle 20 miles in one hour, on average.

See a sports coach. one size does not fit all. Oh and heart rate also is specific to the individual, not age or size. Some have a peak of just 150 bpm others 190 bpm.

Re: Steady but too slow

Posted: 17 Aug 2023, 10:04am
by ed.lazda
any fit person should be able to cycle 20 miles in one hour, on average
I'm a bit sceptical about this – where does the information come from? It's a sort of vague target that I'd like to think I could reach, but never have been able to. Our genes place limits on what can be achieved by training, and I'm guessing (with no evidence) that there are people who could train and fuel perfectly and never get there. I may be one, although I accept this may be a cop-out.

Re: Steady but too slow

Posted: 17 Aug 2023, 10:48am
by mattheus
ed.lazda wrote: 17 Aug 2023, 10:04am
any fit person should be able to cycle 20 miles in one hour, on average
I'm a bit sceptical about this – where does the information come from? It's a sort of vague target that ...
It's a terrible statement. Partly because it's so vague [on a flat road??], but also it's a very common abuse of the word "should".

Do they mean "is obliged to ..." ?
Or "I expect they will ..."?

The latter is quite common - it is very unhelpful when describing another human being.

EDIT:
Dictionary
Definitions from Oxford Languages · Learn more
should
verb
1.
used to indicate obligation, duty, or correctness, typically when criticizing someone's actions.
"he should have been careful"
2.
used to indicate what is probable.
"£348 m should be enough to buy him out"
\rant

Re: Steady but too slow

Posted: 17 Aug 2023, 12:25pm
by Tigerbiten
ed.lazda wrote: 17 Aug 2023, 10:04am
any fit person should be able to cycle 20 miles in one hour, on average
I'm a bit sceptical about this – where does the information come from? It's a sort of vague target that ...
I don't think I've every cycled 20 miles in an hour.
You hit the first aero-wall around 15-17mph where air resistance starts to ramp up badly and to go a little faster starts to take a lot more effort.
So 15 mph for a hour is doable because you're just below the wall.
20 mph for an hour means your fairly elite so not really doable.

Re: Steady but too slow

Posted: 17 Aug 2023, 3:19pm
by briansnail
In my club lots of guys have the problem. Fartlek sprinting on your bike at intervals after a warm up will help. People swear by yoga it does work. In winter wear warm gear.
If your diet is healthy you will be slower. Wolf down ice cream and cream buns and to many beers and you will lead the pack. However the latter is not recommended due to heart disease and diabetes.

If all this does not work do what the rest of us do...........LIE!
*******************************
I ride Brompton and a 100% British Vintage

Re: Steady but too slow

Posted: 17 Aug 2023, 6:23pm
by Nearholmer
also struggle to get my heart rate very high.
This is the bit I least understand, assuming that by “very high” you mean up towards your practical maximum, because the simple way to get the heart pumping is to go up hills, finding steeper ones and/or going faster up them, until your heart is banging away.

Even if you are a super athlete, you must be able to find some hills that are steep, long and difficult enough to do the job. Try off-road if you can’t find difficult enough ones on the roads. Or, load your bike up with panniers filled with five gallon cans of water.

As for 20mph averages: the only way I could do that would be to start at the top of a mountain with a long straight, gently graded road coming down from it. If it had corners, or a steep gradient, I’d wimp out, so it would have to be straight and gentle.

Re: Steady but too slow

Posted: 17 Aug 2023, 8:56pm
by TrevA
I’ve always found the best way to get better at riding your bike is to ride your bike more. I know one guy who likes doing audaxes, but he struggles to get round. He doesn’t do enough miles. You have to ride your bike regularly, at least 3 times a week if you can, the more the better up to a point. I’d always advise having one or two rest days a week but you have to ride regularly. Was it Eddy Merckx that said “Ride as much or as little or as long or as short as you feel but RIDE!”

When I was training to race, I used to have several training circuits - some flat, some hilly. I would time myself around the circuits. One of them was a local club 10 Mile time trial course (flattish but not a “fast” course). I would start off doing 36-37 mins in January - about 16 mph, but gradually over time, I’d get down to 30 minutes, then 29, 28, 27 minutes. I’d concentrate on fluent pedalling (spinning), not pushing a huge gear. By mid-summer, doing an actual time trial, I could manage it in 24 minutes (on a road bike without tribars). This is close to 25mph.

Re: Steady but too slow

Posted: 17 Aug 2023, 9:14pm
by harriedgary
I know this is the cyclist's touring club, but seriously people!
can't do 20mph for just one hour? Never?

I'll tell you a true story then. When I wer a lad, in my wee teens, me and me mates used to cycle around. Except for one other and me, the others never considered themselves to be super fit, or cyclists as such. But me being a junior member of CTC did try to encourage the whoosh of the 27 1/4 tyre on emptier summer country roads. Took one lad out, no plans at all, just cycled. we ended up doing 90 miles that day. Less than 4 hours, and he wasn't a "regular" cyclist, but we matched well and were able to rotate through in a smooth and productive way.

Another time, I was been teased, and got challenged by another lad. Did a 15 mile race. He darned well nearly beat me, if it wasn't for me knowing the route well which he didn't. Did that around 35 minutes.
We were 16,17,18 years old, normal teenagers, on basic racing bikes of the day, i.e 5 or 10 speeds from Halfords etc.

So I really do puzzle how so many have rebutted my assumption that the "average fit cyclist" could do 20 in one hour. I was never any good at timetrialing, never ever got my ten under 22 minutes. Though pretty hot at hills, only beat once locally :) But in my "town" there used to be no end of amateur cyclists posting sub 20 minute tens. And quite a few managed the 25 in under the hour too. My local DA used to plan Sunday rides of between 50 and 70 miles routinely. Though of course we then noodled along at only 14 to 16 mph averages with a mixed ridership of 12 to 80 year olds.

I never said 100 in 4 hours, now that is pushing the combined limit of power and stamina for any average person. But an hour effort, I'm actually worried. My dad had a serious health condition when he was a bairn, but he still became a strong rider by his teens, he used to chivy me constantly in my early teens when I wasn't able to keep up with him. My mum too came from cycling stock, her dad was a regional placer in various mid distance competition back in the 20s and 30s despite been a large man (15 stone)

So, am I being presumptuous that a majority of cyclists today have the ability, even if not demanded, to ride faster. Especially as now we have lightweight frames, not heavy steel frames and 3 speed sturmies. Or as someone else joked, back then they did eat rather more cream buns and beer etc, so maybe we all have been slowed down by modern "health" foods.

So seriously, and respectfully guys, are you training, pushing yourself? Are you mistaking your own exertion levels for absolute limits. Disregard if you have problems like arthritis, angina, copd, etc. I'm talking about people with normal average fitness levels. Because 100 years ago, people used to do hard physical work. People lifted 50 Kg easier than modern humans manage to lift 25 Kg. People would walk 5 miles to work then back. Lift a shovel for 8 hours. Have we all become a nation of comfort seekers? Seriously. I'm not saying anyone has to do anything - at all. I'm rebutting the rebuttals to my statement that the average person should be able to do 20 miles in one hour.

Or is everyone thinking I'm allowing for photo, map check, and tea and pee stops along the way.