Hill Starts - E-assist not helping

[slowster]

Curiousity got the better of me and I decided to dig a bit further. These two posts by hemo - viewtopic.php?p=1751949#p1751949 and viewtopic.php?p=1752625#p1752625, led me to a lengthy thread on the pedelec forum, from which these two posts by flecc appear to be the most informative:

https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/thread ... ost-673939

https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/thread ... ost-673939

In short, the Wisper ebikes with throttle are receiving a 'single vehicle approval', not 'type approval' (contrary to what their own website states), for a classification (250W/25km/h low powered moped) which does not exist elsewhere in Europe. Despite the wording of the relevant legislation, the Minister of Transport has stated that ebikes with such single vehicle approval are to be treated in law to all intents and purposes as being EAPCs, and therefore despite the (low powered) moped classification, there is no requirement for a licence, motorcycle type helmet, number plate or motor insurance.

However, I think liability insurance for such ebikes with full throttles could still be an issue, depending upon the insurer and the wording they use. In other words, the fact that the Minister of Transport has stated that bikes like those sold by Wisper are to be treated in law as EAPCs does not necessarily mean that insurers will/must likewise treat them as EAPCs, and the insurance cover will depend upon the policy wording and insurers' interpretation. If it turns out that some insurers automatically cover Wisper full throttle ebikes and others don't, that would be an unsatisfactory state of affairs.

[Jdsk]

Thankyou.

I couldn't work this out in this previous discussion:
viewtopic.php?p=1747151#p1747151

Jonathan

[thirdcrank]

I'm struggling to keep up but I thought the whole point of EAPCs was that so long as they complied they were exempt from the requirements applied to motor vehicles.

On that basis I cannot see how insurance could be an issue if one has been approved by the relevant government agency.

[MartinC]

Yes, it's horrendously complicated. I think any insurance issue would be the liability cover that people have via their household, BC or CUK insurance - whether it classed them as EAPC's or Mopeds. CUK could help us all by clarifying all of this.

[slowster]

I thought the whole point of EAPCs was that so long as they complied they were exempt from the requirements applied to motor vehicles.

On that basis I cannot see how insurance could be an issue if one has been approved by the relevant government agency.

Because motor insurance is a statutory requirement, the cover, policy wordings and interpretation are aligned with the relevant legislation, As far as the legally compulsory elements of the cover are concerned, there is little to no scope for insurers to vary their wordings and differ in what cover they provide. With liability insurance that is not a statutory requirement, it is up to the insurer what cover they offer and exactly what they will and will not cover, and what exclusions they impose. Hence the liability cover offered by different household insurers and by bodies such as CUK and British Cycling will not be uniform. For example, IIRC British Cycling's policy excludes member to member liability for sportives, but CUK's does not.

I think that there is at the very least the potential for some insurers' policy wordings not to cover full throttle ebikes that have received single vehicle approval. That could be an unintentional exclusion on the part of the insurer, or it might be deliberate, e.g. because the insurer considers full throttle ebikes to present a higher risk, despite having the same speed restriction and power limitation as an ordinary EAPC.

Taking CUK's insurance as an example, I would not be comfortable with the explanation of the cover below if I had a full throttle Wisper ebike, and I would want explicit confirmation from CUK or its broker/insurer that the bike was covered.

Where the main source of propulsion is electrical, the cycle would not be covered as it would be classified as a motor vehicle and should therefore have Road Traffic Act insurance. However, if it has pedals and is mainly used as a conventional bicycle (unicycle, tricycle, quadracycles, tandem or triplet) and only has electric assistance then it would be covered.

I'm struggling to keep up

You need an ebike.

[thirdcrank]

If I've understood that correctly, you are saying that some insurers may use their own interpretations when flogging optional insurance.

I think that why we have (admittedly toothless) omsbuddies and watchdoggies

[slowster]

Another very informative post by flecc on the pedalec forum regarding the legal niceties here - https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/thread ... ils.37594/. Reading that, it is apparent that the law is a dog's breakfast.

I realise that the simple solution would be to fit the throttle that came in the kit. But Helen doesn't want anything illegal on her bike.

I imagine the lead etc. which you planning to buy will be much cheaper, but according to flecc you have another option, which is to put the bike through the £55 Single Vehicle Approval process at an MVSA test centre and get it classed as a low powered moped like the Wisper full throttle ebikes. flecc provides a link to the manual of the requirements (he mentions that a kickstand is one). The bike would then not be legal to use in the EU. As per my post above, I would also check the insurance policy wording if going down that route.

[al_yrpal]

Hill starts never a problem with my Bosch Performance drive.
From what I have heard from users various conversion kits often fall short in some way or other. I darent post here what an employee of a well known UK E Bike manufacturer who fits conversion kits told me.

Al

[rjb]

probably something you may have tried but could you add another magnet to the crank so you have 2 goes at triggering the cadence counter. Im not familiar with your system so apologies if this isnt feasable.

[fivebikes]

My ARCC Moulton TSR27 has a boost start feature. You raise the left pedal and hold the bike still with both brakes. Then apply force to the pedal and simultaneously release both brakes. It gives max power for 3 seconds! Seems to get you started and thereafter you pedal as normal.
My Swytch Brompton has no similar feature, but I find that shifting the rear hub to the lowest gear, while stationary, allows an initial spurt that gets you going!
I realise that this might not work for some riders though, depending on their circumstances and the gradient of the offending hill!

[PH]

Hill starts never a problem with my Bosch Performance drive. Al

You mean never a problem for you.
It isn't a question about the power of a motor, it's about the duration it provides that assistance and whether the rider can do what's necessary to maintain it, that is enough to gain balance, get the other foot on the pedal and continue pedalling.
I don't know the answer, I'm watching with interest, I have an issue with hill starts on any bike*, assisted (Bosch CX) or otherwise. If I stop on a steep hill, that's it, I'm walking to the top! At least with the E-bike it can power itself in Walk mode so I don't have to push.

* I'm well aware of the medical reasons for that, so advice on technique, gearing, practice etc is not appreciated.

[UpWrong]

Hill starts never a problem with my Bosch Performance drive.
From what I have heard from users various conversion kits often fall short in some way or other. I darent post here what an employee of a well known UK E Bike manufacturer who fits conversion kits told me.

Al

Go on. What did they say?

[slowster]

This post of flecc's - https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/thread ... ils.37594/ - includes a link to EN 15194:2009. The part which covers push and start assist is below, and it does not define them in terms of the power, only the maximum speed of 6kph. So it appears to be up to the manufacturer to decide how much power it provides for this function, e.g. enough only for walk assist vs. enough for ride assist, and whether they call it walk/push assist or start assist. So even if two bikes were both described by their respective manufacturers as having start assist, the power output/performance of one in that mode might be much better than the other.

That said, I now wonder if there are any off the shelf EAPCs that have start assist instead of walk assist. Although Kalkhoff go into some detail to explain the differences between walk and start assist on their website, it looks like their current range all use Bosch motors, all of which from the various posts I have read, e.g. on the german forum, have walk assist rather than start assist. Cube likewise appear to use Bosch motors.

4.2.4.3 Start up assistance mode

4.2.4.3.1 Requirements

EPAC can be equipped with a start up assistance mode up to 6 km/h designed speed or lower values as specified by the manufacturer. Unauthorized use shall be prevented.

This mode shall be activated by the voluntary and maintained action of the user either when riding without pedalling or when the user is pushing the cycle.

[Bonzo Banana]

I personally think the legality of many ebikes even shop bought ebikes is questionable. The 250W rating doesn't seem to mean anything with certified e-mountain bikes using well over 22A at 36V. Most mid-drive motors are very power hungry when hill climbing. A mid-drive kit is unlikely to be using a sustained 7A at 36V which is 250W (7x36).

However I'm not sure its been mentioned but The Department for Transport gave an exception for ebike kits so they can have a twist and go throttle just like Type approved models Wisper etc without being individually tested. However this applies only to normal bicycles that have already been used on the road and then later converted to an ebike.

https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/dft-pedal-cy ... -approval/

Of course this legality only applies to ebikes used in the UK only and that may even exclude Northern Ireland as at one point their legislation was different.

I've seen so many threads where people have stated they won't fit a twist and go throttle for legal reasons but then fit a mid-drive motor or powerful hub motor that is well above the 250W rating. However that 250W rating just seems to be ignored in law and the certification. The important thing is the ebike has pedals and only assists to 15.5mph that seems to be all that matters realistically.

[MartinC]

That email from the DfT to Wisper is extremely interesting and answers the question about throttles and conversions. So well done to BB for tracking it down and sharing it. Again I'm disappointed that Cycling UK aren't doing something as useful as that it would be extremely useful in making cycling more inclusive.