New (secondhand) bike time

[Brianjeff50]

I’m thinking it might be time to part ways with my stalwart old Kinesis 4S - I’d like to move to something with disc brakes, better tyre clearance and improved comfort for my ageing body.
But specifically I want to resolve a couple of issues and I’m hoping that comparing dimensions and specs might be a start.
The Kinesis, especially with my short stem, has very sharp, aggressive steering - that makes slow climbing (my speciality) wobbly and the front end flops over easily when stopped. A big pain when touring loaded up.
Also balance/reach is an issue: to get the optimum weight distribution that keeps my weight off my wrists I have to have the saddle right back (and a set-back post). And then I need a short, angled stem.
In short it’s all wrong really but what sort of angles and geometry should I be looking at to get something better?

[Jdsk]

Please could you add a side-on photo or video of your position, feet on pedals and preferably riding by. This would help enormously in understanding your current position and the bike's geometry.

Jonathan

PS: How do you distribute the load on the bike when touring?

[cyclop]

I,ve posted a few times about a new,straight bar setup .Your issue is with steering angles.All I can say is my preferred bike at the moment is a 60yr old frame with clearance for 35mm tyres and lovely,stable steering,if a touch on the slow side.My other bikes,Scott carbon and Kinesis ally are faster but dont,t accomodate 35mm.So,source a frame with more relaxed steering angles and clearance is my advice.

[slowster]

A photograph, or better still video, will help, but also given your commments about a short, angled stem and saddle set back, I suggest you also confirm:

- your height
- current frame size
- stem length and rise
- mm of spacers under the stem

the front end flops over easily when stopped. A big pain when touring loaded up...

...what sort of angles and geometry should I be looking at to get something better?

The Kinesis 4S is a road race style frame designed to take narrow mudguards, i.e. for use as a winter trainer/fast road ride/audax bike. Although it had rear rack mounts, it was not designed to be used with large/heavy panniers (as opposed to, say, a rack top bag).

What sort of loaded touring are you doing/how much does your luggage weigh?

No single bike is going to be well suited to both heavily laden touring with panniers and also stripped down fast spirited rides. You need to decide in what respects what you are willing and able to compromise.

Changing your current bike might not be the best solution, e.g.

- Reduce the weight and bulk of what you take when touring. Spend your money instead on ultralightweight touring kit.

- Alternatively, get a touring bike designed for the sort of loaded up touring that you do, and keep the Kinesis for fast day rides.

If you want a single 'do it all' bike, then the obvious answer, given your various comments, is the Spa Elan or similar. Bear in mind however that even with the Elan you would making a different compromise, but likely a better one in your case. Someone used to riding a steel touring bike designed for loaded touring would find the Elan (especially in titanium) a light and lively bike, but someone used to riding a lightweight aluminium framed/carbon forked bike like the Kinesis will find the Elan to be heavier (especially in steel and/or with a steel fork) and less lively. Neverthless, the titanium Elan is probably as close as you are likely to get to an ideal compromise for you.

[Brianjeff50]

Please could you add a side-on photo or video of your position, feet on pedals and preferably riding by. This would help enormously in understanding your current position and the bike's geometry.

Jonathan

PS: How do you distribute the load on the bike when touring?

That’s a bit tricky at the moment but I’ll try and sort something. This is a side view of the bike in touring mode. The saddle is well back - I’ve had it further but then I’m getting too far back in relation to the pedals. The 17deg stem helps unload my arms etc but makes the steering even more sensitive. (Yes, front panniers would probably improve that.)

[Jdsk]

Thanks... I think that will give the experts something to comment on!

: - )

Jonathan

[rareposter]

This is a side view of the bike in touring mode. The saddle is well back - I’ve had it further but then I’m getting too far back in relation to the pedals. The 17deg stem helps unload my arms etc but makes the steering even more sensitive. (Yes, front panniers would probably improve that.)

By moving the saddle back and raising / shortening the stem, you've effectively slackened both seat and head angle, probably by nearly 3 degrees on the seat, maybe by about 1-2 degrees on the head. Plus you've shifted your weight back and removed a lot of weight from the front, exacerbated considerably by the pannier setup with all the weight on the back.

At higher speeds, especially in rough terrain, the steering assembly remains more stable and straighter with a slack head angle or short offset which is why modern MTB geometry tends towards slack head angles (using the suspension fork to steepen it under compression) but at lower speeds, that can lead to steering flop.
On touring bikes, you want the opposite, something that is more stable at "steady" speeds - a lot of touring bikes use longer wheelbase to achieve this.

The whole relationship between angles, weight and geometry gets very convoluted and you can measure all sorts of different variables as well as change angles and handling characteristics quite considerably using something as simple as a change of stem, bars or fork. I think your issue is that you can't have / don't want too much weight on your wrists so you've done the natural thing of raising the bars but that has slackened off all the angles to the point where the steering is now adversely affected. I suspect if you put it back to original spec, the handling will be fine but then you'll be too uncomfortable to ride it!

I don't really have a solution, I've only got as far as pointing out the issue...
Someone like @colin531 is probably your best bet to provide answers as to the geometry you should be looking for in a new bike.

[Brianjeff50]

A photograph, or better still video, will help, but also given your commments about a short, angled stem and saddle set back, I suggest you also confirm:

- your height
- current frame size
- stem length and rise
- mm of spacers under the stem

the front end flops over easily when stopped. A big pain when touring loaded up...

...what sort of angles and geometry should I be looking at to get something better?

The Kinesis 4S is a road race style frame designed to take narrow mudguards, i.e. for use as a winter trainer/fast road ride/audax bike. Although it had rear rack mounts, it was not designed to be used with large/heavy panniers (as opposed to, say, a rack top bag).

What sort of loaded touring are you doing/how much does your luggage weigh?

No single bike is going to be well suited to both heavily laden touring with panniers and also stripped down fast spirited rides. You need to decide in what respects what you are willing and able to compromise.

Changing your current bike might not be the best solution, e.g.

- Reduce the weight and bulk of what you take when touring. Spend your money instead on ultralightweight touring kit.

- Alternatively, get a touring bike designed for the sort of loaded up touring that you do, and keep the Kinesis for fast day rides.

If you want a single 'do it all' bike, then the obvious answer, given your various comments, is the Spa Elan or similar. Bear in mind however that even with the Elan you would making a different compromise, but likely a better one in your case. Someone used to riding a steel touring bike designed for loaded touring would find the Elan (especially in titanium) a light and lively bike, but someone used to riding a lightweight aluminium framed/carbon forked bike like the Kinesis will find the Elan to be heavier (especially in steel and/or with a steel fork) and less lively. Neverthless, the titanium Elan is probably as close as you are likely to get to an ideal compromise for you.

Thanks for the very useful advice.
I’m 5’9”, the frame is a 54cm, the stem is 80mm with a 17deg rise and there are approx 50mm spacers.
I’m pretty much a ‘credit card tourist’ and I travel quite light with a change of kit, a couple of extra layers and minimal off-bike stuff. Even so it mounts up - the Vaude panniers are heavy even empty. At a guess I’d say, loaded, about 10-12kg minimum the pair.
I do enjoy my day rides but I can’t pretend I ride quickly any more - I just like to feel I am. But the same bike has to be able to do some touring and in Northumberland recently I was struggling with the gearing (30x32 lowest was a grind) and the twitchy steering because I was slow and struggling.

[slowster]

By moving the saddle back and raising / shortening the stem, you've effectively slackened both seat and head angle, probably by nearly 3 degrees on the seat, maybe by about 1-2 degrees on the head.

The head angle does not change by altering the saddle set back, not even 'effectively'.

The Kinesis 4S has a 73.5 degree head angle, and its fork has a 45mm offfset. They will give the low trail/fast/light steering typical of a race bike, and realistically there is nothing that can be done that will make enough difference to overcome that.

OP, by way of comparison, by my reckoning* if you rode a Spa steel rim braked tourer or disc braked D'Tour you would possibly need a stem that was ~10mm shorter to have the same reach to the bars, BUT the steering would be and feel vastly better for loaded touring because those bikes have 70.5 or 71 degree head angles and appropriate forks with more offset, resulting in 'slower'/much less 'twitchy'/more solid steering. Furthermore, the longer chainstays (455mm/460mm vs. 420mm for the Kinesis) are what you need with full sized loaded panniers like yours. Compared with the 73.5 degree seat angle for the Kinesis in 54cm size, the 72 degree seat angles on the Spa tourer/D'Tour would move the saddle forward by ~15mm on its rails to maintain its position relative to bottom bracket and bars (or allow you to use a seat post with less set back).

When unladen, touring bikes like those from Spa will not be as lively or engaging to ride as the Kinesis 4S. You pays your money, you makes your choice.

* 54cm Kinesis - 556mm effective top tube. 54cm Spa D'Tour - 576mm effective top tube, i.e. 20mm longer but that is offset by ~15mm to account for the 1.5 degree difference in seat angle. It's a similar calculation for the Spa steel rim braked tourer. NB I don't think these sorts of calculations are totally exact, because of likely differences in the stack measurement, but I think they are close enough for these purposes.

https://www.kinesisbikes.co.uk/Catalogu ... Archive/4S

https://www.spacycles.co.uk/m1b0s225p49 ... -New-Model

Spa steel rim brake tourer geometry - http://www.spacycles.co.uk/smsimg/uploa ... ometry.jpg

[slowster]

there are approx 50mm spacers.

I think it's a full carbon fork (as opposed to one with an aluminium steerer). Like most manufacturers, Kinesis stipulate no more than 30mm of spacers under the stem of their full carbon forks - https://www.kinesisbikes.co.uk/Addition ... upport/FAQ.

[Brianjeff50]

there are approx 50mm spacers.

I think it's a full carbon fork (as opposed to one with an aluminium steerer). Like most manufacturers, Kinesis stipulate no more than 30mm of spacers under the stem of their full carbon forks - https://www.kinesisbikes.co.uk/Addition ... upport/FAQ.

Oops! That’s how the bike came to me 10k miles ago (secondhand) but I will amend just to be on the safe side.

[531colin]

I'm rather surprised there is enough steerer for 50mm of spacers, they are usually cut short on bikes supplied as whole built bikes.

i think you are going to have to make a choice between something with steering suitable for touring, including climbing slowly with panniers, and something with steering which others describe as "involving", but which i don't like. (I like to be able to watch the birds, look over the hedge at the view, and stuff like that without ending up in the ditch....with "road bike steering" i daren't take my eyes off the road for a second, because the bike then goes wherever it wants. I would absolutely hate 73.5 degrees and 45mm offset.....YUK!!!

Where from here? I think its test ride time.....go to Spa and ride the Elan and anything else you fancy, and decide if you could bear my "quiet" steering for your day rides. (Phone first to check test bike availability)

You seem to be doing the right sort of things to sort out your position.....saddle back to take the weight off hands, short stem to compensate...
Of course the downside is that the less weight you put on the front tyre, the lighter and more inclined to wander the steering will feel.

There is a calculation you can do for "wheel flop factor" .....wheel flop occurs because as the steering turns, the front of the frame lowers....its in Wikipedia, their page on cycle/motorcycle geometry, or something like that.

[531colin]

You can change the steering geometry of the current frame; currently 73.5degrees 45mm offset, changing to my preferred 71.5 degrees would need a fork approximately 40mm longer than the existing fork, keeping offset at 45mm. This would raise the bottom bracket (say)20mm but also make it easier to get the saddle back.
I don’t think reducing the offset is practical, offset would need to come down maybe 20 mm to get a similar effect on steering feel…. Maybe….. this is un charted territory for me!

[Brianjeff50]

You can change the steering geometry of the current frame; currently 73.5degrees 45mm offset, changing to my preferred 71.5 degrees would need a fork approximately 40mm longer than the existing fork, keeping offset at 45mm. This would raise the bottom bracket (say)20mm but also make it easier to get the saddle back.
I don’t think reducing the offset is practical, offset would need to come down maybe 20 mm to get a similar effect on steering feel…. Maybe….. this is un charted territory for me!

Call me dim but how does a longer fork change the head angle; I assumed it was set by the frame geometry?
Second Q is there much weight difference between steel and titanium Spa Elan, it’s not quoted on the Spa website.

[531colin]

Longer fork raises the front of the frame, so the whole bike “leans back”.
You can work it out using the wheelbase and geometry or trigonometry if you prefer.
I don’t really think it’s an answer it leaves too many things still as they are…. Chainstays, tyre clearance for example.
I have used a fork up to 20 mm longer to calm down the steering on a couple of frames which were otherwise suitable.
I don’t know the weight difference between the different frame materials, it won’t be much. Carbon fork makes a big difference, cycle parts make up more of the whole bike weight than the frame.
I think I would go for through axle if buying a disc brake frame, although I don’t have any direct experience!