Cycling UK Forum

Posted: **7 Sep 2023, 3:20pm**

slowster wrote: ↑7 Sep 2023, 3:00pm The term you probably need to search for is "meeting traffic". It might not be used in the Highay Code, but is the terminology used to refer to how road users should act when faced with oncoming traffic.

The first question is who had priority. If the van driver had reached the row of parked cars and moved over into your lane (well) before you had reached/drawn level with the parked cars, then you should probably have waited for him to complete his manouevre and return to his lane.

If you reached the parked cars first, then the van driver either needed to stop and wait for you to pass, or only continue if it was safe to do so. The judgement about what is safe is very dependent on all the circumstances, rather than just a simple 1.5m clearance (and the 1.5m for overtaking is not an absolute rule and is itself dependent on the circumstances, e.g. it is not likely to be appropriate for overtaking speeds above 30 mph).

Unfortunately, because it is so dependent on the circumstances, that gives a lot of scope for different people to have different opinions about whether it is safe to proceed and at what speed. Drivers who don't ride a bike will probably be less aware of how dangerous their driving might be in such a situation.

In reality, you will probably not get a positive response from challenging drivers in such situations. People will naturally tend to be defensive and reject accusations of being in the wrong. Your best hope is to be very neutral in your manner and tone, and encourage them to drive differently rather than focusing on telling them they were at fault, but even then you will be lucky to get a positive response.

You could get a Go Pro type camera and submit the footage to the police, but I suspect that it will have to be egregious for the police to consider that it meets the threshold for them to act.

It would be interesting to hear what a Bikeability instructor would say about such a scenario. One technique I sometimes use in a similar scenario (singletrack roads), is to ride in primary position (middle of the lane) and not move over closer to the edge to allow an oncoming vehicle to pass unless and until it slows down to what I consider a reasonably safe speed. In an extreme case if the oncoming vehicle maintains an excessive speed, I would stop in primary position and put my feet down on the ground, wait until the vehicle had reached me and stopped because I was blocking their ability to continue, and then ride slowly around them.

Thanks - I'll try searching again for meeting traffic!

To answer a couple of your other points - I had priority as I was already more than half way along the row of parked cars before he appeared and the road was clear on my side of the road whereas he had to pull out into my side to pass the parked cars.

I stayed very neutral when talking to him - he was the one who shouted, not me, but I cycled off when he started shouting to avoid any further escalation. Funnily enough it was a delivery van - not Amazon though.

It's not the sort of situation I'd bother reporting to the police either - I was more curious/bemused that the changes to the Highway Code didn't allow for passing oncoming traffic like this and he wasn't supposed to give me 1.5 metres.

Posted: **7 Sep 2023, 3:26pm**

I know from friends living on the islands that visitors (or maybe just tourists rather than regular visitors?) are often less courteous - perhaps only because they don't understand how single track with passing places roads work and have no experience of them.

I do think it's different in the city - I'm in Glasgow although not city centre and drivers vs cyclists seems to have got more contentious in recent years unfortunately.

I get frustrated at cyclists blatantly breaking the rules of the road (weaving in and out of pedestrians at speed on pavements, cycling through red lights willy nilly, etc) and think if we as cyclists respect the rules of the road we might get better respect from drivers back.

Posted: **7 Sep 2023, 3:39pm**

If you want some form of (definitive) authority, I think you would probably need to get hold of a copy of 'Roadcraft' and/or see what a driving instructor/examiner says.

Many years ago when I was learning to drive, I drove too close to an oncoming car during one lesson, and the instructor told me that that if I repeated that in the test it would result in an automatic fail. I presume therefore that Roadcraft contains more detailed guidance on this issue for instructors, examiners and those in the police who make decisions about prosecution etc.

Posted: **7 Sep 2023, 4:20pm**

AliGlasgow wrote: ↑7 Sep 2023, 3:26pm I do think it's different in the city - I'm in Glasgow although not city centre and drivers vs cyclists seems to have got more contentious in recent years unfortunately.

I get frustrated at cyclists blatantly breaking the rules of the road (weaving in and out of pedestrians at speed on pavements, cycling through red lights willy nilly, etc) and think if we as cyclists respect the rules of the road we might get better respect from drivers back.

Doubt it, those who hate cyclists will continue to do so no matter how virtuous our collective road craft is.

I would like to see police Scotland accept video evidence of crap driving, then if you had a video of what had happened you could have got the driver 3 points - that would make him think how they behaved around cyclists in the future.

Did you know that Police Scotland has yet again delayed implementing the National Dashcam Safety Portal !
Get onto your MSP and the Chief Constable.

Posted: **7 Sep 2023, 4:51pm**

I'm agreeing with Slowster at this point (yeah I know, I'm uncomfortable with it to

)

The parked cars were on your right, which would mean that they presented an obstacle to the van driver. Technically as it was your right of way the van should have waited until you had cycled passed them, before proceeding.

This failed to happen. How the whole 1.5 metre passing distance is a bit of a red herring, as there was still a duty of care for the driver not to attempt to squash you between the wall and the van under rules highway code rules 204, 213 and 147 (i think)

Now if it was me, in that situation i would have cycled directly at the front of the van to see what was going to happen next. Its not something I would recommend, but I'm not a small bloke and i like conflict. Having done that in the past, vechicles have actually stopped. Not all the time... but most of the time. When they don't stop, I stand in the middle of road and certainly pleasantries are exchanged

Posted: **7 Sep 2023, 4:57pm**

AliGlasgow wrote: ↑7 Sep 2023, 3:26pm
I get frustrated at cyclists blatantly breaking the rules of the road (weaving in and out of pedestrians at speed on pavements, cycling through red lights willy nilly, etc) and think if we as cyclists respect the rules of the road we might get better respect from drivers back.

Yeah, but cyclists breaking the rules rarely kill anyone, whereas today 7 or 8 people have died in road collisions caused by motor vehicles breaking the rules, blatantly or otherwise....
I'll respect motorists more when they respect the speed limits more...

Posted: **7 Sep 2023, 5:08pm**

AliGlasgow wrote: ↑7 Sep 2023, 3:26pm I know from friends living on the islands that visitors (or maybe just tourists rather than regular visitors?) are often less courteous - perhaps only because they don't understand how single track with passing places roads work and have no experience of them.

I can imagine that. We've been going to the same place for ten years now. My father was from the Western Isles, and I have (very distant) relatives there, and many people we speak to remember my uncle. So hopefully over the years of renting a house there, eating in the local pubs, (well, pub) restaurants and cafes, shopping in the shops and so on, we may have established ourselves a little bit as "regulars". And so with me on a bike.

I've seen a few fast "sports" cyclists out there. You know the type who seems determined to "prove" something (perhaps to themselves) about their rightful place in the next Olympic team. And won't let anything stop them. I'm there for the fantastic environment, wild (and domesticated) animals. And the fresh breeze (ha ha!). So a few seconds waiting for somebody who actually lives there to drive past safely doesn't bother me.

Though I agree, some first time visitors may not "get" passing places and the unspoken protocol of using them. And it's sometimes not entirely clear when a "single track" road is one. Daliburgh to Lochboisdale is "single track" as far as vehicles are concerned, with passing places. But a bike and a car can pass each other pretty comfortably. Other stretches of road are far tighter. The "single track" roads are definitely not to some uniform Dept of Transport "standard carriageway width". Which from memory is 3.65m, by the way.

Posted: **7 Sep 2023, 5:14pm**

cycle tramp wrote: ↑7 Sep 2023, 4:57pm
AliGlasgow wrote: ↑7 Sep 2023, 3:26pm
I get frustrated at cyclists blatantly breaking the rules of the road (weaving in and out of pedestrians at speed on pavements, cycling through red lights willy nilly, etc) and think if we as cyclists respect the rules of the road we might get better respect from drivers back.
Yeah, but cyclists breaking the rules rarely kill anyone, whereas today 7 or 8 people have died in road collisions caused by motor vehicles breaking the rules, blatantly or otherwise....
I'll respect motorists more when they respect the speed limits more...

Interesting. In your quote of AliGlasgow he said nothing whatsoever about respecting, or not, motorists. He was talking about respecting cyclists. And he said that as a cyclist.

A nice bit of "whataboutery" you did there.

The sooner all road users, including cyclists, stop viewing other road users as discrete homogeneous groups, the better we will all be.

And I agree, there are a lot of lousy cyclists out there, who do the things AliGlasgow described.

Posted: **7 Sep 2023, 5:20pm**

maximus meridius wrote: ↑7 Sep 2023, 5:14pm ...
The sooner all road users, including cyclists, stop viewing other road users as discrete homogeneous groups, the better we will all be.
...

Thankyou. Yes. I use roads in different ways at different times: it's something that I do, not something that I am.

Jonathan

Posted: **7 Sep 2023, 5:26pm**

maximus meridius wrote: ↑7 Sep 2023, 5:14pm
cycle tramp wrote: ↑7 Sep 2023, 4:57pm
AliGlasgow wrote: ↑7 Sep 2023, 3:26pm
I get frustrated at cyclists blatantly breaking the rules of the road (weaving in and out of pedestrians at speed on pavements, cycling through red lights willy nilly, etc) and think if we as cyclists respect the rules of the road we might get better respect from drivers back.
Yeah, but cyclists breaking the rules rarely kill anyone, whereas today 7 or 8 people have died in road collisions caused by motor vehicles breaking the rules, blatantly or otherwise....
I'll respect motorists more when they respect the speed limits more...
Interesting. In your quote of AliGlasgow he said nothing whatsoever about respecting, or not, motorists. He was talking about respecting cyclists. And he said that as a cyclist.

A nice bit of "whataboutery" you did there.

The sooner all road users, including cyclists, stop viewing other road users as discrete homogeneous groups, the better we will all be.

And I agree, there are a lot of lousy cyclists out there, who do the things AliGlasgow described.

Just to clarify I am female not male (you've misgendered me!

)

One of my biggest frustrations around Glasgow is the food delivery riders (UberEats, Deliver and the like) who have adapted e-bikes that clearly don't meet the spec of an e-bike. They ride on the pavement and rarely obey the rules of the road and all on a bike that should legally be classified as a scooter with registration, helmet, insurance, etc. I know it gives cyclists in general a bad name to see such blatant and dreadful cycling. It's not only those riders who ride badly, but they are the most obvious as they head uphill without pedalling etc. Drivers vs cyclists comes up very regularly on NextDoor and these cyclists are the ones called out as the worst examples. I wish the police would take them off the road - they are illegal after all.

Posted: **7 Sep 2023, 5:54pm**

maximus meridius wrote: ↑7 Sep 2023, 5:14pm
cycle tramp wrote: ↑7 Sep 2023, 4:57pm
AliGlasgow wrote: ↑7 Sep 2023, 3:26pm
I get frustrated at cyclists blatantly breaking the rules of the road (weaving in and out of pedestrians at speed on pavements, cycling through red lights willy nilly, etc) and think if we as cyclists respect the rules of the road we might get better respect from drivers back.
Yeah, but cyclists breaking the rules rarely kill anyone, whereas today 7 or 8 people have died in road collisions caused by motor vehicles breaking the rules, blatantly or otherwise....
I'll respect motorists more when they respect the speed limits more...
Interesting. In your quote of AliGlasgow he said nothing whatsoever about respecting, or not, motorists. He was talking about respecting cyclists. And he said that as a cyclist.

A nice bit of "whataboutery" you did there.

Ah yes! There is the conflict!! It is fun, is it not? But sadly true, cyclists on pavement annoying cyclist disregarding red light annoying.. cyclist who pulled out of the junction into my right of way when I was driving.. slightly annoying and would have been hazardous too, but I saw him before hand, read his body language and checked my speed, covered brake and clutch and stopped in time. Ha! They never even noticed. Smooth driving on my part.

But car driving at 40 in 30 zone dangerous. Housewife on prescription medication when driving dangerous, lorry over filled with diesel spilling it everywhere dangerous.
8 people on UK roads will be sacrificed to the daemon thought of 'travel without effort' tomorrow... and another 8 after that and another 8 after that... no outrage...only sadness. And the hope that it is not your friends your family members who is sacrificed..
Cyclist not stop at red light... lots of outrage. Outrage to cause distraction at what we should be angry about..

Ha! It is your turn again..

Posted: **7 Sep 2023, 6:09pm**

maximus meridius wrote: ↑7 Sep 2023, 5:14pm
The sooner all road users, including cyclists, stop viewing other road users as discrete homogeneous groups, the better we will all be.

And I agree, there are a lot of lousy cyclists out there, who do the things AliGlasgow described.

The thing is, I find it safest to assume that a driver who could threaten my life if s/he does the wrong thing, is a member of the sub group of dangerous or careless drivers.
Coming up to a pinch point I take the lane to avoid being squeezed.
If I see a car coming up to the T junction where I have priority, I move out a little to give more dodge room. This saved me twice in one week.
If I hear a car slowing as it overtakes when I am about to turn left, then I take the corner wide to discourage a left hook.
It is impossible to know what variety of driver you are meeting.
I do not subscribe to the idea that certain makes of car are generally badly driven, and anyway I cannot tell one make from another, except by reading the badge.
A distrust of drivers thus becomes habitual.

Posted: **7 Sep 2023, 6:33pm**

Mike Sales wrote: ↑7 Sep 2023, 6:09pm
maximus meridius wrote: ↑7 Sep 2023, 5:14pm
The sooner all road users, including cyclists, stop viewing other road users as discrete homogeneous groups, the better we will all be.

A distrust of drivers thus becomes habitual.

Damn, now I'm agreeing with two posters in one thread. But it is true. I would go even further- that a distrust of drivers isn't only habitual, it is life preserving.

Sorry about agreeing with you, by the way. Awkward.

Posted: **7 Sep 2023, 6:41pm**

cycle tramp wrote: ↑7 Sep 2023, 6:33pm Sorry about agreeing with you, by the way. Awkward.

Not at all, I am pleased by agreement, and often agree silently with you.

Posted: **7 Sep 2023, 6:48pm**

I was once told "ride in the gutter and be treated like dirt" , " MOVE OUT a yard" then you leave yourself room to move back

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1.5m give cyclists space - overtaking only?

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