Cycling UK Forum

Personality and Behavioral Predictors of Cyclist
Involvement in Crash-Related Conditions

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl ... 0behaviors.

Possible worth a read.
I think Cycling UK needs to provide an annual conference to discuss research and provide speakers to suggest how progress can be made.

Steady rider wrote: ↑8 Sep 2023, 7:34pm

Personality and Behavioral Predictors of Cyclist
Involvement in Crash-Related Conditions

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl ... 0behaviors.

Possible worth a read.
I think Cycling UK needs to provide an annual conference to discuss research and provide speakers to suggest how progress can be made.

...yeah, I stopped reading when I read 'it is estimated that 60% of fatal crashes involving...'

Well... as long as we're making $h!t up, why not estimated that 70% of fatal crashes were caused by little tiny goblins living in the gutter or the miraculous appearance of visions featuring the baby Jesus, or for the non-religious Sam Fox* from the sun comic...

At which point it's probably not worth the time clicking on the link, let alone wasting valuable seconds reading the fiction - a stupid mixture of pop-pyschology, misunderstood statics and pure imaginary stuff designed only to inflate the author's own sense of importance... I have no idea who the author is, probably someone hired by the anti-bicycle brigade attempting to make a name for themselves....

I think cyclinguk's time would be better of horse whipping drunk drivers...

(* for anyone not over the age of 40 why not Google search.... no really, don't.... that was a joke.... really don't, you have been warned).

cycle tramp wrote: ↑7 Sep 2023, 4:51pm This failed to happen. How the whole 1.5 metre passing distance is a bit of a red herring, as there was still a duty of care for the driver not to attempt to squash you between the wall and the van under rules highway code rules 204, 213 and 147 (i think)

Now if it was me, in that situation i would have cycled directly at the front of the van to see what was going to happen next. Its not something I would recommend, but I'm not a small bloke and i like conflict. Having done that in the past, vechicles have actually stopped. Not all the time... but most of the time. When they don't stop, I stand in the middle of road and certainly pleasantries are exchanged

thats the thing that surprises me the most, the van driver knows about the 1.5m overtaking rule, apparently seems willing to observe it, but still happily drives head on at a vulnerable road user, because the HC doesnt explicitly say, dont drive like a total (insert swear word of choice) in this situation

I dont really have much success with the ride at them approach, theres a good percentage who carry on at unabated speed, and you have to decide to call it quits as I think they will happily hit you, theres the majority who slow down though not always as much as they should, but generally keep driving at you, so you still have to call it quits at some point, and then there are those that stop, but then go full on triggered road rage as you pass, at least the ones who just drive at you its over quickly.

when youre getting dogs abuse from some random stranger simply because you reminded them of their care of duty, when you know full well if youd been in a car, theyd not have had any problem stopping and been nice as pie and exchanging thank yous instead. It leaves a sour taste on a ride sometimes.

AliGlasgow wrote: ↑7 Sep 2023, 3:26pm I get frustrated at cyclists blatantly breaking the rules of the road (weaving in and out of pedestrians at speed on pavements, cycling through red lights willy nilly, etc) and think if we as cyclists respect the rules of the road we might get better respect from drivers back.

absolutely I get frustrated too, and Ill call out cyclists breaking rules. But as much I think it would be nice to believe if all cyclists respected the rules, then drivers would give us the respect back, bitter experience has taught me that aint happening, there will always be something that sets some drivers off, and sometimes its as simple as theyre stuck in traffic and you arent.

awavey wrote: ↑8 Sep 2023, 9:14pm

AliGlasgow wrote: ↑7 Sep 2023, 3:26pm I get frustrated at cyclists blatantly breaking the rules of the road (weaving in and out of pedestrians at speed on pavements, cycling through red lights willy nilly, etc) and think if we as cyclists respect the rules of the road we might get better respect from drivers back.

absolutely I get frustrated too, and Ill call out cyclists breaking rules. But as much I think it would be nice to believe if all cyclists respected the rules, then drivers would give us the respect back, bitter experience has taught me that aint happening, there will always be something that sets some drivers off, and sometimes its as simple as theyre stuck in traffic and you arent.

As per example above, my experience is that it does happen. Now, that is anecdotal, and in a fairly unusual environment compared to most of the UK. Still, I think it happened.

I had an incident myself recently where a large BMW passed very close when heading towards me on a road narrowed by parked cars. The vehicle mirror missed me by a few cm's and due to the tightly parked cars, I had nowhere to go and wrongly assumed the driver would wait a few seconds to let me pass.

Additionally, I regularly have to wait on the side of the ride on a narrow part of the busy A468 for traffic to pass so that I can turn right and I find many vehicles passing me very closely whilst I am waiting. I have to wait at the side, as the road is usually far to busy to contemplate waiting in the centre as usual.


I e-mailed Gwent Police regarding passing requirements in these two circumstances and if the 1.5 metres passing distance still applied and I received the following reply:


Hello Mr Thomas

The Highway code is a guidance to all road users however officers do use the highway code as a guide as not following the guidance could contribute to an offence.

Yes you are guided to give cyclists the same amount of room when passing them when stationary.
With regards to your question about vehicles heading towards you, this comes down to both common and road sense.

Kind regards
Gwent Police

awavey wrote: ↑8 Sep 2023, 9:07pm

cycle tramp wrote: ↑7 Sep 2023, 4:51pm
Now if it was me, in that situation i would have cycled directly at the front of the van to see what was going to happen next. Its not something I would recommend, but I'm not a small bloke and i like conflict. Having done that in the past, vechicles have actually stopped. Not all the time... but most of the time. When they don't stop, I stand in the middle of road and certainly pleasantries are exchanged

I dont really have much success with the ride at them approach, theres a good percentage who carry on at unabated speed, and you have to decide to call it quits as I think they will happily hit you, theres the majority who slow down though not always as much as they should, but generally keep driving at you, so you still have to call it quits at some point, and then there are those that stop, but then go full on triggered road rage as you pass, at least the ones who just drive at you its over quickly.

So having cycled to the shops and back and encountered many parked cars to my right, I paid full attention to the process which over the past few decades had simply become force of habit...

So approaching a line of parked cars to my right, I do a quick double check to see if any motor vehicle is behind me - if it is, I stop and let it go past first.. as any motor vehicle is going to be more affective at stopping any on coming traffic than my 36 spoke front wheel and a wald basket...
...having let the motor traffic go past, or if there isn't any, I find I've automatically taken my position in the middle of the road. At the point I am clearly able to be seen by any oncoming traffic - and if there was any on coming traffic they now have to make a choice- pull in behind the parked cars and wait for me or approach me.... if they do approach I can clearly gauge their speed, and I've made eye contact with them. At this point, by staring directly at their face and without breaking eye contact.. I know what I'm up against.. I'm also able to gauge any distraction they might have and the other occupants. That's especially important if it's 6 guys in a car, cause everything might go south from that point onwards...

If they continue to approach me at speed, I've then got a series of options, the latter of which is to allow them to pass.. if I have to take this last option then by positioning myself in the middle of the road, I have a better chance of aiming for a gap between two parked cars, than if I would had I have kept to my left... and given the choice I'd rather place myself between two parked cars and an on coming vehicle and a wall....

..what tends to happen is that I'll stop in the middle of the road and take my phone out of my pocket, and see what unfolds...

As an additional note; Aleister Crowley* commented that most things were down to strength of will. Here's a fun thing to do when you're next in a supermarket... imagine you're in a circle which extends so four feet from your body. In between the edge of that circle and you is a space which is full of the words 'get out of my way' the circle is just full of this sentence over and over again, like it's on some ribbon.... try it. See what happens, then keep trying it every time you go to the supermarket... see what happens in three or four months time...

(*famous occultist, Mi5 agent, writer, chess player and mountaineer. Google him . It's safe-ish)

Obviously a bit of a grey area. Here are a couple of links. The first is one of my own reports to the police and shows that if you hold your line and have to take avoiding action the police will deem the driving to be unacceptable but not far enough below the standard to be prosecuted. This was in Gloucestershire.

https://road.cc/content/news/nmotd-833- ... rve-297295

The one below was updated yesterday after a review of the initial police response of "no further action". The video shows an oncoming driver failing to give 1.5m by a good margin but the police chose to blame the cyclist for shouting at the driver rather than the car driver for driving past a vulnerable road user far too closely. This was North Yorkshire.

https://road.cc/content/news/nmotd-806- ... dog-294737

I think we can deduce from these that even the police don't know the answer to this one.

Steady rider wrote: ↑8 Sep 2023, 7:34pm

Personality and Behavioral Predictors of Cyclist
Involvement in Crash-Related Conditions

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl ... 0behaviors.

Possible worth a read.
...

Thanks for that.

Jonathan

Steady rider wrote: ↑8 Sep 2023, 7:34pm

Personality and Behavioral Predictors of Cyclist
Involvement in Crash-Related Conditions

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl ... 0behaviors.

Possible worth a read.
I think Cycling UK needs to provide an annual conference to discuss research and provide speakers to suggest how progress can be made.

"High crash rate of cyclists"? I'm no statistician, but I did read it through. It's crammed with jargon and serious sounding stuff but it seems to be based on a small self selecting sample size of a Chinese population (though it does acknowledge the demographic limitations) and even if there is some sort of cyclists' Armageddon going on in China, it doesn't strike me as being relatable to the cycling that I know in my experience on a small island off the European coast. It starts off with the premise of suggesting that there has been a massive increase in worldwide cyclist accidents and goes downhill from there.

I did like the inclusion of the term "normlessness" though. There are always those in any society who feel alienated enough that they don't think the rules apply to them, be they red light jumpers or those who struggle to make a living such as fast food delivery riders riding on pavements or the wrong way up one way streets, ignoring others' rights of way, etc in an unpredictable manner.

It serves as a reminder to such as myself who follow the rules (mostly) with the "curse of knowledge" blinding us to the motivations of others who might routinely break them and cause a hazard to themselves and others in the process.

a.twiddler wrote: ↑10 Sep 2023, 6:27pm

Steady rider wrote: ↑8 Sep 2023, 7:34pm

Personality and Behavioral Predictors of Cyclist
Involvement in Crash-Related Conditions

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl ... 0behaviors.

Possible worth a read.
I think Cycling UK needs to provide an annual conference to discuss research and provide speakers to suggest how progress can be made.

It starts off with the premise of suggesting that there has been a massive increase in worldwide cyclist accidents and goes downhill from there.

It's utter rubbish, I wouldn't give it the time of day...

Well, while the concept of angry road user more likely to be in a crash is about the least surprising thing I've read today, the author of that paper would appear to be better off writing for the daily mail/telegraph/times given the full bingo card of anti cycling tropes they've checked off. Actually embarrassing someone was willing to publish that.

Anyway, on topic.

The 1.5m was largely a reflection of case law on of what constitutes careless/inconsiderate driving and is not a hard and fast rule. Since there is a much greater number of attempted prosecutions for overtakes than oncoming passes then the guidance is rather more silent on the latter.

From a personal perspective, if speeds are the sort of typical low ones used in most narrow street negotiations then I'm usually happier with a somewhat closer distance than for an overtake (for any given set of circumstances that are as equivalent as they can be). This is largely because it is possible to see what the other vehicle is doing, use eye contact etc.

The video below shows what was probably a similar incident to the OP's. Ashley Neal has posted it on his Youtube channel and added commentary. Whether or not you agree with his take, the video itself is at least a basis for discussion of the issues involved.

Thanks for posting that - I don't know who the guy is but he vert much echoed what I previously wrote... at about 45 seconds into the clip, I would have poditioned myself so that it was clear to the on coming motorist that I was about to cycle down the middle of the road between the parked cars and the pavement, leaving the motorist to make a decision as to how to respond.