Cycling UK Forum

I had a situation with a van driver today on a small road in a residential area. There are always cars parked on one side and as I was heading along I was more than half way past all the parked cars (who were on the opposite side of the road from me) when a van started driving towards me. The road is narrow enough that it wasn't safe for me to keep cycling as he drove at me but I held my hand up and he stopped so I asked him to give me safe space as he passed me. He said that didn't matter and the Highway Code change only counted for overtaking.

I've checked and the new change in the Highway Code DOES only specify to leave 1.5m when overtaking a cyclist with no reference to passing head on. This seems bonkers to me as a vehicle coming head on at you is more dangerous, so I'm curious why the 1.5m doesn't apply to any time passing a cyclist - irrespective of the direction of travel.

If I had been a car he would have stopped and waited for me to pass the parked cars but clearly felt that squeezing past me at 20-25mph was completely fine. With a high wall on my left I had nowhere to go at all and had he not stopped it would have been dangerous.

Recent discussions:

"Overtaking":
viewtopic.php?p=1752472

"Highway Code revisions: Now implemented 29 January 2022":
viewtopic.php?t=139662

To the best of my knowledge we never established what overtaking or passing means.

Jonathan

Thanks for posting those threads but I can't see that they address the head-on situation I had. The Highway Code is also very clear in using the word overtaking for the 1.5m rule with cyclists, and only uses the word pass in reference to horses and pedestrians. It has been talked about in the media as passing but passing isn't clear on direction of travel, whereas overtaking is.

"Overtaking means passing with a vehicle by another participant in road traffic that moves in the same direction along the same traffic lane or part of the road that is intended for traffic."

My question is about vehicles driving head on towards me and the Highway Code doesn't appear to require them to give me 1.5m space.

If there's something I missed in the second thread please give me a clue how to find it - I scanned most of the 41 pages of that thread but it's so long that I might have missed it or perhaps the relevant comment didn't use the words I searched for.

for my money the 1.5m rule is for stuff overtaking, don't think there is any specific law for your situation, I would guess you would need to argue driving without reasonable consideration, which would be a matter of opinion so difficult to prove, but can be worth 3 to 9 points.

For your situation in the OP, may be you should have selfishly taken the middle of the road to deter the van from thinking he could share the space. that's my tactic at least, works most times (but not always)

Interesting post.

AliGlasgow wrote: ↑7 Sep 2023, 12:00pm I had a situation with a van driver today on a small road in a residential area. There are always cars parked on one side and as I was heading along I was more than half way past all the parked cars (who were on the opposite side of the road from me) when a van started driving towards me. The road is narrow enough that it wasn't safe for me to keep cycling as he drove at me but I held my hand up and he stopped so I asked him to give me safe space as he passed me. He said that didn't matter and the Highway Code change only counted for overtaking.

That sounds like some good cycling, in terms of how you handled the situation. And actually not-too-bad driving either. In that he did actually stopped and was willing to talk. As opposed to driving at you head on and sweary shouting. Interesting that he was aware of the Highway Code change, which many drivers won't be. So a bit of a start.

AliGlasgow wrote: ↑7 Sep 2023, 12:00pm I've checked and the new change in the Highway Code DOES only specify to leave 1.5m when overtaking a cyclist with no reference to passing head on. This seems bonkers to me as a vehicle coming head on at you is more dangerous, so I'm curious why the 1.5m doesn't apply to any time passing a cyclist - irrespective of the direction of travel.

As it happens, and this may be completely illogical, I always feeling safer passing another vehicle (in opposite directions) a bit close. I think it might be because it's easier to see exactly how close we're going to pass each other, and I can aim for "the gap". Whereas if I'm being overtaken, even with my bar-end mirror, it's harder to judge where I should position myself. And if they're overtaking I don't know if they will pull out and leave a good gap, or pass close. Also the time we're alongside each other is a lot less head to head, compared to overtaking. But then, as you said, the closing speed will be a lot greater head to head.

AliGlasgow wrote: ↑7 Sep 2023, 12:00pm If I had been a car he would have stopped and waited for me to pass the parked cars but clearly felt that squeezing past me at 20-25mph was completely fine. With a high wall on my left I had nowhere to go at all and had he not stopped it would have been dangerous.

Yes, the high wall sounds dodgy. I've just returned from the faraway land of passing places (also known as the Outer Hebrides). Where most roads are single track. But at least there's nearly always the option of launching myself onto the verge/into the ditch, if an oncoming driver refuses to give room.

I've noticed an interesting effect on some of the narrow-ish rural roads around here.

While they are narrow enough that two cars passing each other (in opposite directions) have to take care, cars approaching me from ahead when I'm on the bike have never given me cause for concern and always seem to leave a decent amount of space.

Why, then, do cars coming up from behind (who could obviously pass me leaving just as much space) typically hesitate, sometime for ages, before overtaking? There's usually plenty of visibility ahead, so it's not a case of having to wait to be sure there isn't another vehicle approaching.

Pebble wrote: ↑7 Sep 2023, 1:49pm For your situation in the OP, may be you should have selfishly taken the middle of the road to deter the van from thinking he could share the space. that's my tactic at least, works most times (but not always)

That's what I did but I suspect it's also the only reason he stopped - he couldn't pass me! He did keep driving head on at me until I put my hand up and he stopped a couple of feet in front of me. Once he'd done that I got off and walked to his window as I could see him putting it down. We spoke briefly, then he shouted at me that he could do what he liked as he wasn't overtaking me.

I just think its madness that the Highway Code actually seems to put him in the right on this as regards the 1.5m rule!

DaveReading wrote: ↑7 Sep 2023, 2:11pm I've noticed an interesting effect on some of the narrow-ish rural roads around here.

While they are narrow enough that two cars passing each other (in opposite directions) have to take care, cars approaching me from ahead when I'm on the bike have never given me cause for concern and always seem to leave a decent amount of space.

Why, then, do cars coming up from behind (who could obviously pass me leaving just as much space) typically hesitate, sometime for ages, before overtaking? There's usually plenty of visibility ahead, so it's not a case of having to wait to be sure there isn't another vehicle approaching.

Does it feel as if it could be something to do with being able to look at each other when travelling in opposite directions?

Thanks

Jonathan

maximus meridius wrote: ↑7 Sep 2023, 2:03pm Interesting post.

AliGlasgow wrote: ↑7 Sep 2023, 12:00pm I had a situation with a van driver today on a small road in a residential area. There are always cars parked on one side and as I was heading along I was more than half way past all the parked cars (who were on the opposite side of the road from me) when a van started driving towards me. The road is narrow enough that it wasn't safe for me to keep cycling as he drove at me but I held my hand up and he stopped so I asked him to give me safe space as he passed me. He said that didn't matter and the Highway Code change only counted for overtaking.

That sounds like some good cycling, in terms of how you handled the situation. And actually not-too-bad driving either. In that he did actually stopped and was willing to talk. As opposed to driving at you head on and sweary shouting. Interesting that he was aware of the Highway Code change, which many drivers won't be. So a bit of a start.

AliGlasgow wrote: ↑7 Sep 2023, 12:00pm I've checked and the new change in the Highway Code DOES only specify to leave 1.5m when overtaking a cyclist with no reference to passing head on. This seems bonkers to me as a vehicle coming head on at you is more dangerous, so I'm curious why the 1.5m doesn't apply to any time passing a cyclist - irrespective of the direction of travel.

As it happens, and this may be completely illogical, I always feeling safer passing another vehicle (in opposite directions) a bit close. I think it might be because it's easier to see exactly how close we're going to pass each other, and I can aim for "the gap". Whereas if I'm being overtaken, even with my bar-end mirror, it's harder to judge where I should position myself. And if they're overtaking I don't know if they will pull out and leave a good gap, or pass close. Also the time we're alongside each other is a lot less head to head, compared to overtaking. But then, as you said, the closing speed will be a lot greater head to head.

AliGlasgow wrote: ↑7 Sep 2023, 12:00pm If I had been a car he would have stopped and waited for me to pass the parked cars but clearly felt that squeezing past me at 20-25mph was completely fine. With a high wall on my left I had nowhere to go at all and had he not stopped it would have been dangerous.

Yes, the high wall sounds dodgy. I've just returned from the faraway land of passing places (also known as the Outer Hebrides). Where most roads are single track. But at least there's nearly always the option of launching myself onto the verge/into the ditch, if an oncoming driver refuses to give room.

Oh if only there had been no shouting from the driver! And he was only a couple of feet from me head on before he stopped - not a very comfortable feeling at all.

The high wall is not nice and left me with nowhere to go. I love the Outer Hebrides but have only taken the car not my bike - as you say flinging yourself onto the verge - hopefully of nice bouncy heather or similar is not quite as daunting. My experience driving on the islands is that local drivers are pretty considerate as it's part and parcel of driving single track roads.

This is a pic from street view of the road in question. This is several years old and it is now a residents permit zone so marked spaces all the way on the right in the pic and no parking on the left at all. It is also invariably parked 100% as it was today for me cycling up it so cars all the way in what shows as space in that pic. It's a dead end behind the pic - I took the screenshot from the position I was in roughly.

Not as high a wall as I'd remembered but with the fence and broken stone slabs in the road from the wall it is too narrow for a transit size van plus a cyclist. It's not a long stretch of road at all - maybe 40 metres before it widens out and I was clearly visible.

I was really quite taken aback that the Highway Code didn't allow me the 1.5m coming head on to him.

AliGlasgow wrote: ↑7 Sep 2023, 2:20pm

Pebble wrote: ↑7 Sep 2023, 1:49pm For your situation in the OP, may be you should have selfishly taken the middle of the road to deter the van from thinking he could share the space. that's my tactic at least, works most times (but not always)

That's what I did but I suspect it's also the only reason he stopped - he couldn't pass me! He did keep driving head on at me until I put my hand up and he stopped a couple of feet in front of me. Once he'd done that I got off and walked to his window as I could see him putting it down. We spoke briefly, then he shouted at me that he could do what he liked as he wasn't overtaking me.

I just think its madness that the Highway Code actually seems to put him in the right on this as regards the 1.5m rule!

I don't think that absence of the explicit 1.5 m rule does "put him in the right" in any way.

And see the new H1 and H3 rules:
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway ... troduction

Jonathan

If there had been a collision I think it would have been quite clear he was in the wrong - but as regards the 1.5 metre rule it doesn't apply to the situation I was in as it explicitly applies to overtaking and is silent on any other situation. It leaves you having to prove he was at fault and that I didn't cycle into his path.

I really think the 1.5 metres ought to apply to passing in either direction - not only overtaking.

The term you probably need to search for is "meeting traffic". It might not be used in the Highay Code, but is the terminology used to refer to how road users should act when faced with oncoming traffic.

The first question is who had priority. If the van driver had reached the row of parked cars and moved over into your lane (well) before you had reached/drawn level with the parked cars, then you should probably have waited for him to complete his manouevre and return to his lane.

If you reached the parked cars first, then the van driver either needed to stop and wait for you to pass, or only continue if it was safe to do so. The judgement about what is safe is very dependent on all the circumstances, rather than just a simple 1.5m clearance (and the 1.5m for overtaking is not an absolute rule and is itself dependent on the circumstances, e.g. it is not likely to be appropriate for overtaking speeds above 30 mph).

Unfortunately, because it is so dependent on the circumstances, that gives a lot of scope for different people to have different opinions about whether it is safe to proceed and at what speed. Drivers who don't ride a bike will probably be less aware of how dangerous their driving might be in such a situation.

In reality, you will probably not get a positive response from challenging drivers in such situations. People will naturally tend to be defensive and reject accusations of being in the wrong. Your best hope is to be very neutral in your manner and tone, and encourage them to drive differently rather than focusing on telling them they were at fault, but even then you will be lucky to get a positive response.

You could get a Go Pro type camera and submit the footage to the police, but I suspect that it will have to be egregious for the police to consider that it meets the threshold for them to act.

It would be interesting to hear what a Bikeability instructor would say about such a scenario. One technique I sometimes use in a similar scenario (singletrack roads), is to ride in primary position (middle of the lane) and not move over closer to the edge to allow an oncoming vehicle to pass unless and until it slows down to what I consider a reasonably safe speed. In an extreme case if the oncoming vehicle maintains an excessive speed, I would stop in primary position and put my feet down on the ground, wait until the vehicle had reached me and stopped because I was blocking their ability to continue, and then ride slowly around them. Edit - I remember doing this once on a long gravel track used by motor vehicles. An approaching car was travelling far too fast, and throwing up a huge dust cloud behind it. I and a horse rider were on the track side by side, and we just stopped and waited for the car to stop in front of us. We pointed out the error of his ways to the driver, who to his credit acknowledged that he was driving too fast and slowed down.

IMO, face-to-face passes are something that it would be quite difficult to cover in detail in the HC, because the circumstances vary so much.

On narrow rural lanes I’ve negotiated passes at lower than walking pace, virtually touching, both when driving and cycling, and on other occasions have stopped when cycling, or stopped when driving …… in the real world it sort of becomes obvious who is best placed to stop. How one would codify that beats me.

In urban cases, where the issue is parked cars on one side of the road, who should give way if it’s obvious that a safe pass is impossible is also a matter of common sense and circumstance, how long it’s going to take the person in the clear lane to pass the parked vehicles, what speed they’re doing, how close they are to the start of the narrow section, whether they’ve already entered it, all come into it. Again, difficult to codify beyond ‘use your common sense, be patient, and remember if driving a vehicle that you are bigger, heavier, and a lot more solid than someone on a bike’.

IMO most drivers seem to get it about right when it comes to such potential contention, but two instances of drivers getting it badly wrong when I’ve been cycling stick in my mind: an Amazon delivery van driver coming down between very long lines of parked cars on both sides of the road who nearly obliterated me, rather than stopping for a moment so that I could dodge into a small gap in the line of parked cars; and, a daft old boy driving in mega relaxed mode, window down, elbow out, who acted as if I didn’t exist when passing a single car on his side of the road, so that I had to slam the brakes on to avoid getting hit.

AliGlasgow wrote: ↑7 Sep 2023, 2:26pm Oh if only there had been no shouting from the driver! And he was only a couple of feet from me head on before he stopped - not a very comfortable feeling at all.

Ah, I see. I wondered if that might be the nature of the "interaction".

AliGlasgow wrote: ↑7 Sep 2023, 2:26pm The high wall is not nice and left me with nowhere to go. I love the Outer Hebrides but have only taken the car not my bike - as you say flinging yourself onto the verge - hopefully of nice bouncy heather or similar is not quite as daunting. My experience driving on the islands is that local drivers are pretty considerate as it's part and parcel of driving single track roads.

Most drivers out there, whether local or (I guess) visitors are considerate. I have tried, lately, to generate some sort of credibility/reputation, or however you want to put it, by being scrupulously considerate in my cycling. I rent a house in the same place, and the location means that the first 10 miles of every ride always on the same route. I am now recognising many of the drivers, and I think they me. I always try to stop first (in passing places), either for head-on passes or to allow overtakes. If we both miss a passing place I stop pedalling, pull in and put a foot down, so vehicles can pass easily and safely. I try not to delay anybody, if possible. After all, I'm on holiday, whereas they might going to, oh, I don't know, rescue a sheep or something. I now notice that the vast majority of drivers are also very considerate and courteous, and I think they have become more so. There was one specific delivery driver whose interactions with me changed, for the better, over a couple of weeks. Whether that was due to him encountering me several times I don't know, maybe I'm reading too much into it.