Cycling UK Forum

IIRC Brandt's FEA assumed the rim was flexible in bending so I agree the results don't necessarily relate to modern rims. They do, however, tell you what the spokes are trying to do, which is useful.

Brucey wrote: ↑31 Oct 2023, 11:26am IIRC Brandt's FEA assumed the rim was flexible in bending so I agree the results don't necessarily relate to modern rims. They do, however, tell you what the spokes are trying to do, which is useful.

“Flexible” as in “ no intrinsic stiffness” ?
….. or some other value of “flexible” ?
…I feel my admittedly tenuous grasp of this stuff slipping away….!

I have never used threadlock on a bike wheel nipples. The occasional customer wanted “self locking” nipples, like nylock nuts, which fought you all the way up the thread…horrible things! I can see a need for threadlock in lightweight highly dished wheels (say 130 mm OLN 11speed with a narrow light rim without offset spoke holes) where the left spokes are likely to go slack when the wheel is ( variously) loaded, but I never found it necessary on touring wheels. Most people lubricate the nipples before building…I stopped doing that.
Funny isn’t it…… a completely self-taught wheelbuilder (apart from reading Brandt) in a backstreet bike shop in a small town….. I got some really big lads from Leeds and York coming to me for wheels… one bloke worked in a bike shop, their builder couldn’t make wheels that would hold him up…… he became my test pilot for the biggest size of Spa frames. If they were stiff enough for him, they were stiff enough! (He wasn’t completely sold on his LHT….if he put the power down, the chain rubbed both sides of the F. mech. cage; but he could put the power down)
With wheels built for Spa, I followed the “Spa way” which was driveside spokes either plain gauge or 13/14single butted (depending on rim and use) with double butted elsewhere. For my own wheels or if the rider wanted it, I used double butted throughout. I used to persuade heavy riders to use deep rims…. the deep rims of the day, not modern ones! With a deep rim and no other alterations the increase in lateral stiffness of a wheel is very obvious when I am finishing a build and going through the final repeating cycle of “stress the wheel, true the wheel, balance the tension” .
All these theoretical failures don’t happen to me…., I guess I must be doing it all wrong?
Although, to be fair, if the rim flexes a whopping 3.6 mm sideways due to differential spoke tension going over a bump….. it will go straight back again .
I “stress” them repeatedly much more than that when I’m building. I should think getting out of the saddle moves them more than that.

Not sure this is relevent to this topic so apoligies if not.
Two videos about stress relieving.
The first one condemns the second one (not directly )
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_A6YzjcpBM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rq3TfGvFAhs
I could understand the second one inducing the bends in the spokes
I don't understand how just squeezing the spokes 'sideways' stress relieves the spokes ? But I do this as well (with gloves) as the Sheldon method which also sets the bends. (small hammer wood shaft)

SHELDON = Seating and Stress-Relieving the Spokes
Before a wheel is ready for the road, it must be stress-relieved, because the bend in the spoke has to accommodate itself to the shape of the hub flange and vice versa, and a similar process may go on where the nipple sits in the rim. Some wheelbuilders do this by flexing the whole wheel, others by grabbing the spokes in groups of 4 and squeezing them together. My preferred technique is to use a lever to bend the spokes around each other where they cross. My favourite lever for this is an old left crank: This particular technique has the added advantage of bending the spokes neatly around each other at the crossing, so they run straight from the crossing in both directions. As you go around the wheel this way you will probably hear creaks and pinging sounds as the parts come into more intimate terms with each other.

Is there a topic in the "Technical : too good to lose" section ?

Third post on this thread I linked my choice of reading material for stress relief

531colin wrote: ↑31 Oct 2023, 1:38pm Third post on this thread I linked my choice of reading material for stress relief

I read that and can see the sense in squeezing across the wheel (L-R or R-L).
Not sure about the wheel system though ?

531colin wrote: ......Flexible” as in “ no intrinsic stiffness” ? ......

That is what I recall. At the time pretty much any FEA was a big deal, so modelling the rim as a series of freely pivoting segments seemed like a reasonable thing to do.

cycleruk wrote: ↑31 Oct 2023, 2:40pm
Not sure about the wheel system though ?

At 70 Kg and 76years, I’m not much of a test for wheel durability, so in that sense I’m not “ sure” of it either.
I think it’s just like squeezing spokes from the left and right flanges together, except doing it one side at a time.
I do know it’s more than 10 years since my hands were able to tolerate Brandt’s manual squeezing method for stress relief.
I have still never broken a spoke in any wheel set I have built.

531colin wrote: ↑31 Oct 2023, 1:15pm With wheels built for Spa, I followed the “Spa way” which was driveside spokes either plain gauge or 13/14single butted (depending on rim and use) with double butted elsewhere. For my own wheels or if the rider wanted it, I used double butted throughout.

That's interesting. Why did you build your own wheels with double butted throughout rather than the 'Spa way'?

Jezrant wrote: ↑31 Oct 2023, 4:31pm

531colin wrote: ↑31 Oct 2023, 1:15pm With wheels built for Spa, I followed the “Spa way” which was driveside spokes either plain gauge or 13/14single butted (depending on rim and use) with double butted elsewhere. For my own wheels or if the rider wanted it, I used double butted throughout.

That's interesting. Why did you build your own wheels with double butted throughout rather than the 'Spa way'?

I’m 70 Kg riding 36 spoke 135 mm OLN wheels with touring width hollow box section rims. I get that double butted spokes stretch more than plain gauge at the same tension, but I would rather use butted spokes all round because they share the load between many spokes. I’m not sure about the notional benefit of “equalling out” the stretch by using (edit.).thick…spokes one side and thin spokes the other.
With absolutely no mathematical justification!

531colin wrote: ↑31 Oct 2023, 1:15pm I have never used threadlock on a bike wheel nipples. The occasional customer wanted “self locking” nipples, like nylock nuts, which fought you all the way up the thread…horrible things! I can see a need for threadlock in lightweight highly dished wheels (say 130 mm OLN 11speed with a narrow light rim without offset spoke holes) where the left spokes are likely to go slack when the wheel is ( variously) loaded, but I never found it necessary on touring wheels. Most people lubricate the nipples before building…I stopped doing that.

FWIW, I've been told that Thorn/SJS normally build wheels using boiled linseed which both acts as a lubricant and stops the nipples loosening.

JohnR wrote: ↑31 Oct 2023, 5:26pm FWIW, I've been told that Thorn/SJS normally build wheels using boiled linseed which both acts as a lubricant and stops the nipples loosening.

I've seen light (dry) chain lube used as well and I'm fairly sure I heard of someone using beeswax once but maybe that was apocryphal.
Again, I think it's one of those "I was taught this way so that's The One True Way" thing where each builder reckons their personal way is The Way It Should Be Done.

JohnR wrote: ↑31 Oct 2023, 5:26pm ……
FWIW, I've been told that Thorn/SJS normally build wheels using boiled linseed which both acts as a lubricant and stops the nipples loosening.

You can’t beat traditional ways of doing things!
….I’m old enough to remember when window glass was held in by putty….which is powdered French chalk suspended in boiled linseed oil, which polymerises over time so the putty sets.

IIRC Roger Musson advocates the exact same [with the linseed oil]. Makes sense to me too although it [like any threadlocker really] does make taking the wheel apart more difficult. I've dismantled such wheels and you can still smell the linseed oil even decades on.

531colin wrote: ↑31 Oct 2023, 4:56pm ......With absolutely no mathematical justification!........

fortunately you don't need maths to know if wheels work or not......