wheel-building expert advice sought

[drossall]

Well, I didn't necessarily say that it would make the wheel collapse. The question was how to tell whether a wheel was properly laced 3x. The OP didn't define "properly". At least in my mind, if all the pairs except one are interlaced (or whatever you want to call it), that's unintentional and therefore not "properly".

It's usual practice, except as you say on small wheels, where it's not really possible, to interlace the spokes. You can certainly build without it, but it's usual.

[Brucey]

actually I have seen a road bike with an unbraced spoke crossing on the drive side; it hit
the mech every turn of the wheel in bottom gear

[531colin]

I keep looking back to this thread, and each time i look I still don't really know what the question was.
So I thought I would illustrate my first response......

first, a machine-built wheel; so no improving the spoke line, no stress-relieving

IMG_5740 mach. sp by 531colin, on Flickr

IMG_5733 machine spoke by 531colin, on Flickr

showing 2 spokes from the outside of the flange (or the same spoke twice, who knows?)
The spoke bows away from the flange, you can see daylight between spoke and flange.....it bows because the elbow bend is not acute enough, so the spoke is flexed (in a curve) to achieve the necessary angle between the part of the spoke which goes through the flange and the shaft of the spoke. Each time the wheel rotates the spokes at the bottom of the wheel are relieved of some of their tension, so each revolution the curve of the flexed spoke relaxes then returns; this fatigues the spoke typically at the elbow bend.

Next, a hand-built wheel where I have improved the spoke line and stress-relieved the wheel......

IMG_5766 hand by 531colin, on Flickr

IMG_5771 h spok by 531colin, on Flickr

Spokes on the outside of the flange lie in close contact with the flange, and they are straight....because i have given the elbow bend a set so its at the right angle. (there is also a slight bend where the spokes on the outside of the flange cross the top of the flange)
(you can see the spokes on the inside of the flange don't lie quite so tight against the flange.....this leads to the "counsel of perfection" which states that "pulling" spokes (those which are subject to tension increases due to torque from pedalling or hub brakes) should be on the outside of the flange, so disc brake rear wheels (for example) are spoked differently each side.

Improving the spoke line and stress-relieving are pretty important if you want long-lasting spokes: I would expect anybody who calls themselves a wheelbuilder to get the spoke pattern right, get the spokes at the right (even) tension with the wheel round, true and correctly dished but then the jobs not really finished if the spoke line is not correct and the spokes are not stress-relieved.

[Jezrant]

the question was very simple. your enlarged narrowly focused photos partly answer it. machine-built wheels that haven’t been stress-relieved wasn’t my main concern, but it’s good you pointed that out. i was wondering more about how easy it is to spot a bodged diy job where the lacing pattern was messed up. someone early in this thread said it wasn’t immediately obvious and depended on the photos.
that’s all folks, thanks for the input.

[531colin]

I meant to add; if you lace up a wheel and get a couple of spokes in the wrong holes, its not going to work because the spokes will then be the wrong length.

[mig]

decent enough images will show if it is properly laced but won't show if the wheel build is necessarily any good.

[Jezrant]

not what you’re referring to and a bit off-topic, but I’ve only ever bought a used pair of wheels once before — because they were wheels I’d wanted to try and couldn’t afford them new at the time (Mavic SSC’s BITD). Turned out the hub races were knackered.
Dishing errors, unevenly tensioned spokes, and spokes that haven’t been properly stress relieved are all easy enough to rectify.

[Brucey]

Turned out the hub races were knackered.....

that is bad but it is not an insurmountable problem

[Jezrant]

Turned out the hub races were knackered.....

that is bad but it is not an insurmountable problem

I know, you once explained how to do it in another thread of mine a few years ago. Record hubs. You may remember it. There was someone else on here who’d also fixed a Record hub with wrecked races. I’d never heard of it before, and thought the hub was irreparable. Got my money back from the seller on fleabay.
cheers

[Brucey]

in the grand scheme of things I would say it is 'quite easy' to change a cup in a Campag 'record' hub. Also ,being though-hardened the cups usually respond well to attempts to polish/regrind them even if you only have an electric drill to hand.

[jb]

How are the races removed? I've never attempted it before. Not sure if its possible to knock them out from behind.

[Brucey]

Campag 'record' races are [unlike many others] designed to be removed. My tip is to warm the hub up first because this makes it even easier.

[Jezrant]

I had a lot of fun with those hubs. I'd bought them from a seller in Germany or France (can't remember which now) who used to sell a lot of old Record components and similar stuff for renovating old racing bikes. The axles seemed to spin fine, as I expected from old Record hubs, but I made the cardinal mistake of failing to inspect the innards before building the wheels. I noticed there was a tiny bit of play in the hubs and assumed the cones just needed some adjusting, which I planned to do at the end. As I was finishing the wheels, I must have tried half a dozen times to get rid of that tiny bit of play, which was making it hard to get the wheels perfectly true. I finished them as best I could, and then finally opened the hubs and saw/felt the damage. I don't think the seller knew the races were wrecked, and he seemed genuinely surprised. A true gent, he apologised profusely and took the hubs back without any quibbles and refunded me. Sometime afterwards I mentioned this story on here, and naturally Brucey came along with a solution for fixing them, which involved replacing the races. I seem to remember someone else on here also said they'd once replaced the races too. I had no idea they could be replaced. I'd been using Record hubs since the early 1970s, and can't recall ever seeing Record hub races for sale, but they must have been available BITD (before the Internet).

[jb]

Thanks Brucey, I was told that new races are rather pricey so a re-grind would make sense if it could be done uniformly around the race with home tools. I suppose the good thing about cup and cone races is they don't need to be an exact form but they do need to be concentric.

[Brucey]

I had a lot of fun with those hubs......

I once 'built' a set of wheel only to similarly notice that one of the cups was loose in the hubshell. I fixed it using epoxy resin......