Cycling UK Forum

slowster wrote: ↑25 Oct 2023, 1:01pm For a utility bike, dynamo lights are the best option. Ordinary people who are not cycling enthusiasts just want a bike that they can get on and go whenever they need or want to. Some people might go weeks between using their bike, or they might not cycle to work in the middle of winter or only cycle in the summer. Having to make sure that rechargeable lights are kept charged just in case someone might want to ride the bike after a period of non-use or late in the evening during summer is a pain.

The ability to transfer battery lights between bikes is a valid argument, but the provision of dynamo lighting on a high proportion of utility bikes sold in countries like Germany is a better approach, not least because providing it as standard on a mass market bike enables large economies of scale. I would guess that a dynamo system with a basic Nexus dynamo hub and basic lights adds little more than £25-£30, and possibly less, to the manufacturing cost of a bike.

We aren't Germany though and thank god that we aren't! I disagree as being 'best' option, an ordinary person isn't going to want to outlay significantly more over the cost of a simple light, and dyno fitted bikes are not what the ordinary non enthusaist are buying, because they (the bikes) are expensive and not readily available new and even less so second hand which is what most non enthusiasts buy. To retrofit a system isn't £25-30, you know this, and even IF manufacturing costs were £25-£30 more that will never equate to retail cost differences even if those few non enthusaists that hardly use a bike light for months at a time would buy such in any case.
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And you talk as if rechrgeable/seperate battery lights simply go pop in a matter of weeks and discharge themselves, this in my experience simply isn't the case, even with older/well used lights. And so what if there is no light, you think the ordinary non enthusiast is somehow not capable of a tiny thought regards checking a bike light, when did this happen in society? Most humans are able to charge phones/other gadets and have the accesories to do so, even on the go, so they can do this with a light, or indeed just ride without one, which happens more regularly now for non enthusiasts, it matters not to me as I have no problem seeing unlit objects moving or stationary.

Creating more cost, more hassle, adding weight to a bike with no flexibility isn't what the non enthusaist wants, indeed, most enthusiast riders don't want/need a dynamo system either, hence it's niche market.

Carlton green wrote: ↑27 Oct 2023, 9:54am ...
I’ve not had any particular problems with bottle dynamos and, for me, they have simply just worked. Are bottle dynamos a thing of the past? Well, they were certainly extensively used in the past so lots of folk must have regarded them as a viable answer to their needs - indeed I was recently looking at old images of rough stuff fellowship riders and noticed that many had bottle dynamos.

Are bottle dynamos the best dynamo lighting solution available today? Probably not, though it depends on what your needs are. Obviously (?) riders of the past didn’t mind a bit more effort to gain some light, used suitable tyres capable of taking a sidewall driven dynamo and USB ports weren’t needed - I don’t use USB ports on my bike either. They (all types of riders in the past) got by nicely and what worked for folk in the past can work similarly for folk now, well that’s my experience.

Whatever, it’s an old argument and unfortunately one that attracts polarised views.

Hub dynamos could not work well before the invention of powerful neodymium magnets in 1984 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neodymium_magnet). It's physics. Remember the SA Dynohub? That was the performance you got. A bottle dynamo can spin the weak magnets faster and generate a more powerful oscillating field, generating more power. It was the only solution back then, other than the Sanyo Dynapower, which was a bottle dynamo running on the tyre tread under the bottom bracket. With the immensely more powerful magnetic field created by a neodymium magnet a dynamo can work well in the hub without gears. Sure, dynamos running on the tyre still work but they are no longer necessary. Utility bikes sold now here in Germany almost all have hub dynamos but rarely bottles.

Wouldn't a hub dynamo mean you'll fight some magnet resistance all he time whether you want to or not?

Cowsham wrote: ↑29 Oct 2023, 5:37pm Wouldn't a hub dynamo mean you'll fight some magnet resistance all he time whether you want to or not?

I think I remember CJ saying that yes, there is drag, equivalent to a one in four hundred gradient.

by Chris Juden, based upon data from tests performed at Wilfried Schmidt ... Here dynamo lighting is the province of cycling enthusiasts. Not all but most of ...
‎Bottles, Rollers and Hubs · ‎Electrical Output · ‎Drag · ‎Selected Comparisons

This is at Myra-Simon.com, but it does not work for me.
These may be better.

http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=6309.0

Chris writes...

A good way to think about this drag is in
terms of riding uphill: how steep is the
hill that would make you work that much
harder? The answer, for the ‘worst’ bottle
dynamos, assuming an all-up weight of
90kg, is a gradient of 1-in-300 or 0.3%.
That’s a rise of only 18 feet in a mile and if
that’s a hill, I’m a Dutchman! But tyre-
drive also makes noise, and if you can hear
something rubbing that really is a drag on
your psycling!
Internal hub generators are silent
and have much less drag: equivalent to
ascending only five or six feet per mile,
i.e. one-in-a-thousand.

https://www.cyclinguk.org/sites/default ... ynamos.pdf

It has occurred to me that the change in the note from a bottle dynamo as speed changes may be offputting to some. It changes as the effort needed increases, so may be associated with extra exertion, and gets the blame.

Cowsham wrote: ↑29 Oct 2023, 5:37pm Wouldn't a hub dynamo mean you'll fight some magnet resistance all he time whether you want to or not?

Yes.
But it's pretty much undetectable in use, at least by me. I imagine someone with a skinsuit and an eagle eye on their power meter might have issues, but the reality is I don't notice it's there.

Pete.

Mike Sales wrote: ↑29 Oct 2023, 5:53pm It has occurred to me that the change in the note from a bottle dynamo as speed changes may be offputting to some. It changes as the effort needed increases, so may be associated with extra exertion, and gets the blame.

I had one on my 8-Freight for a while. It wasn't power-suck that bothered me but the way grip varied with weather. It was just a lot more faff than a hub, and when it died I went for battery lights (single sided fork means dynohub not really a goer)

Pete.

My own experience using a modern hub dynamo was that it did introduce drag that I could detect on roads I was very familiar with. In particular, it meant I had to resume pedalling noticeably earlier after freewheeling down a particular hill, a bit like a brake rubbing gently. I could put up with that on a ten mile commute. I wouldn't welcome it on a ride that was already going to be a physical challenge.

And I seem to remember Brucey starting a thread that went over my head (nothing new there) about how a dynamo has an extra form of drag that isn't normally considered.
viewtopic.php?p=1568262&hilit=dynamo#p1568262

Chris writes...

A good way to think about this drag is in
terms of riding uphill: how steep is the
hill that would make you work that much
harder? The answer, for the ‘worst’ bottle
dynamos, assuming an all-up weight of
90kg, is a gradient of 1-in-300 or 0.3%.
That’s a rise of only 18 feet in a mile and if
that’s a hill, I’m a Dutchman! But tyre-
drive also makes noise, and if you can hear
something rubbing that really is a drag on
your psycling!
Internal hub generators are silent
and have much less drag: equivalent to
ascending only five or six feet per mile,
i.e. one-in-a-thousand.

Thanks @Mike Sales for that timely reminder of valuable data and informed comment.

Hub dynamos do, as I now recall, have some drag when not in operation. In the bigger picture that drag is tiny and I’d not fuss about it. One small benefit in running a bottle dynamo is that there’s no drag at all until it’s actually in use, which for me is now a very small percentage of my cycling time.

Whatever, it’s an old argument that’s not helpful to cycling and just needlessly divides people.

pwa wrote: ↑30 Oct 2023, 5:14am My own experience using a modern hub dynamo was that it did introduce drag that I could detect or roads I was very familiar with. In particular, it meant I had to resume pedalling noticeably earlier after freewheeling down a particular hill, a bit like a brake rubbing gently. I could put up with that on a ten mile commute. I wouldn't welcome it on a ride that was already going to be a physical challenge.

And I seem to remember Brucey starting a thread that went over my head (nothing new there) about how a dynamo has an extra form of drag that isn't normally considered.
viewtopic.php?p=1568262&hilit=dynamo#p1568262

Depending on which way it's wired the drag could increase with speed and or electrical load.

SwiftyDoesIt wrote: ↑23 Oct 2023, 12:52am

gazza_d wrote: ↑18 Oct 2023, 6:11pm I started cycle commuting again about a decade ago now after managing only the occasional ride.
I started by taking the car part way and cycling the last 5 miles. Even with faffing with bike and car it was still quicker than driving those last few miles.
After a couple of months or so I stepped up to cycling the full 17 miles each way.
Best thing I ever did. Yea it was maybe 15 minutes longer, but I started saving nearly £200 a month (fuel and parking). The time was an investment in me.

Don't think you have to cycle every day. It's fine to have an off day or give it miss due to the weather.
For the darker months I really recommend a hub dynamo and lights. And make the bike carry any weight.

Sure you'll smash it. Good luck

What's the point of extra weight and cost for little gain?
An StVZO light that has a sturdy bracket, cut off lens and intermediate light settings with the highest enough to do 30mph on unlit roads, with easy charging can be had these days from the likes of LIDL for £15.
Dynamo's have had their day as a mainstream light option and good luck to all that use them, but there's so few applications/ride types that one can outweigh a standalone light, never mind the extra cost. Also if you damage a wheel beyond repair, how many bike shops stock one?

Absolute rubbish your comments about dynamo’s as you say that “ Dynamo's have had their day as a mainstream light option”.

I have battery lights - Outbound, Philips, Dinotte, and they are great in brightness terms, and I love them where more oomph is required, but limited battery/run time (albeit the Outbound can run off external battery packs with pass through charging).

My dynamo lights - Exposure Revo; Busch and Muller IQ-X at 100 lux; B and M Cyo at 80 lux have the convenience of fit and forget, always ready, always there, don’t have to remember to charge lights, and the latest generation of dynamo lights are superb. If you ride a lot, dynamo lights are a worthy option.

slowster wrote: ↑24 Oct 2023, 10:38pm

SwiftyDoesIt wrote: ↑24 Oct 2023, 9:41pm you think or you know based on facts?
you're welcome to your opinion but the mainstream of people riding bikes whom require lights, are not using dynamos and do not ever even consider them. It's not mainstream for them to be stocked, to be available on the high street, and in those retail outlets that do have them, the options are not as extensive as non dynamo. They simply are not a mainstream option, they are a niche product for a niche market, and all power (pardon the pun) to those that use them and find them to fit their needs.

UK bike sales are dwarfed by sales of bikes in mainland Europe, especially Germany. More people cycle to work in those countries, and dynamos are the norm. It is the UK that is the niche market.

Well said.

markjohnobrien wrote: ↑8 Nov 2023, 8:47pm

SwiftyDoesIt wrote: ↑23 Oct 2023, 12:52am

gazza_d wrote: ↑18 Oct 2023, 6:11pm I started cycle commuting again about a decade ago now after managing only the occasional ride.
I started by taking the car part way and cycling the last 5 miles. Even with faffing with bike and car it was still quicker than driving those last few miles.
After a couple of months or so I stepped up to cycling the full 17 miles each way.
Best thing I ever did. Yea it was maybe 15 minutes longer, but I started saving nearly £200 a month (fuel and parking). The time was an investment in me.

Don't think you have to cycle every day. It's fine to have an off day or give it miss due to the weather.
For the darker months I really recommend a hub dynamo and lights. And make the bike carry any weight.

Sure you'll smash it. Good luck

What's the point of extra weight and cost for little gain?
An StVZO light that has a sturdy bracket, cut off lens and intermediate light settings with the highest enough to do 30mph on unlit roads, with easy charging can be had these days from the likes of LIDL for £15.
Dynamo's have had their day as a mainstream light option and good luck to all that use them, but there's so few applications/ride types that one can outweigh a standalone light, never mind the extra cost. Also if you damage a wheel beyond repair, how many bike shops stock one?

Absolute rubbish your comments about dynamo’s as you say that “ Dynamo's have had their day as a mainstream light option”.

I have battery lights - Outbound, Philips, Dinotte, and they are great in brightness terms, and I love them where more oomph is required, but limited battery/run time (albeit the Outbound can run off external battery packs with pass through charging).

My dynamo lights - Exposure Revo; Busch and Muller IQ-X at 100 lux; B and M Cyo at 80 lux have the convenience of fit and forget, always ready, always there, don’t have to remember to charge lights, and the latest generation of dynamo lights are superb. If you ride a lot, dynamo lights are a worthy option.

Becaue you disagree doesn't make what I've said rubbish talk about getting triggered and defensive!
The facts are that dynamo lights are NOT mainstream, they are used by a much smaller number of people riding than in days gone by.
How many bike shops stock dynamo wheels, how many stock a dyno light? They simply are NOT mainstream option anymore and haven't been for a long time. There's nothing wrong in that, it's simply the way things are.
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And the claimed advantages - my lights are always there and always charged as it hppens, are negated by long run times and ease of charging batteries (internal or otherwise). There's far more versatility with seperate lights - 2-3 bikes currentl with one light at £15, £26 for the Sigma Pava but that covered every single bike I owned, about 7 or 8it got used on (Clamp on and off was a matter of seconds each way for the whole thing) including the racing machines when I fancied going out at night.
You've quoted 3 lights at circa £350 for the head units alone, I reckon I've spent half that if not less, since I started riding with lights back in the 80s! How many people want to spend £50-£70 on a head unit (Never mind £200!) with more cost for the wheel with the dyno hub as well? Hardly anyone, again proving it's not mainstream.

Replacements to get dyno are slow, if you bust a wheel you can't just get one from a bike shop or local bike charity/social media selling sites that easily.

enjoy what you have but rubbishing people's viewpoints doesn't do you any favours nor win any 'arguement'

H’mm, a lot of thread drift but the OP has already been well answered.

enjoy what you have but rubbishing people's viewpoints doesn't do you any favours nor win any 'arguement'

That’s pretty much true of loads of folk on loads of forums, well that’s my experience. Some folk forget that forums are places for discussion and for sharing of experiences, instead they just have to be right and any view other than theirs is (to them) intolerable …

(If asked) I’d say enjoy what you have and (please) keep an open mind about what you might also enjoy; have some awareness of what’s considered either best or better, make the occasional change or tweak and enjoy what you find works well for you.

My own bikes are ones that most folk here wouldn’t want to ride - some might but far from most. That’s OK by me, the bikes are intended to suit my needs and not most folks .

gazza_d wrote: ↑18 Oct 2023, 6:11pm I started cycle commuting again about a decade ago now after managing only the occasional ride.
I started by taking the car part way and cycling the last 5 miles. Even with faffing with bike and car it was still quicker than driving those last few miles.
After a couple of months or so I stepped up to cycling the full 17 miles each way.
Best thing I ever did. Yea it was maybe 15 minutes longer, but I started saving nearly £200 a month (fuel and parking). The time was an investment in me.

Don't think you have to cycle every day. It's fine to have an off day or give it miss due to the weather.
For the darker months I really recommend a hub dynamo and lights. And make the bike carry any weight.

Sure you'll smash it. Good luck

My underlining.

When I cycle commuted it was a case of having to do so and it was a grind at times. However I do think that cycling can be very good exercise (pace yourself, take it steady and ride a reasonably good bike) and hence time spent (sensibly) exercising is an investment in your physical and mental health. With some irony I also note that, in later years, when I drove into work (for lack of a safe cycling route) I would then spend my lunch hour either having a walk, on a bike I kept at work or in the gym getting some exercise.

Taking the occasional day off? Definitely, when needed then be kind to yourself.