Cycling UK Forum

toontra wrote: 3 Nov 2023, 1:05pm The "ignore" list is handy when it's pretty clear someone's posts are routinely objectionable in both content and manner and made with the sole purpose of antagonising folk into futile pedantry. maximus meridius is him/herself invoking the possibility of being banned by the mods - based on previous experience perhaps?

Possibly. Though it is interesting that posters who claim to have put me on the "ignore" list choose to respond to me. Perhaps it takes more discipline than they have to actually stick to their "ignore" list.

It would be revealing if I were indeed banned. Exposing what I think is the bias of the moderators. It seems that vigorous and repeated statements that oppose the dominant viewpoint are perhaps not tolerated, maybe under the cover of being too "contentious", no matter how politely expressed.

Not to worry. This is a cycling forum, after all. Other forums are available. And the views I expressed are held by many, regardless of how often they choose to keep those views to themselves.

roubaixtuesday wrote: 3 Nov 2023, 1:09pm

maximus meridius wrote: 3 Nov 2023, 1:06pm

roubaixtuesday wrote: 3 Nov 2023, 12:13pm

The point is indeed clear - that these countries are in no position to take millions of refugees, having already more than anywhere else on earth. 22% in Lebanon are refugees IIRC, and their economy is collapsing already. So no, it's not a serious suggestion.

Where did I say that those countries should take "millions of refugees"? Yours is a strawman argument. What I was commenting on was the treatment of Palestinian refugees in those countries.

Ah, so you don't think it's necessary for neighbouring countries to take more refugees from Gaza?

Seemed to be what you were saying here.

viewtopic.php?p=1806371#p1806371

Some do, some don't. I think. Egypt, at the moment, seems very resistant to taking refugees from Gaza, despite being the best placed, at this moment in time to do so.

maximus meridius wrote: 3 Nov 2023, 1:14pm
Some do, some don't. I think. Egypt, at the moment, seems very resistant to taking refugees from Gaza, despite being the best placed, at this moment in time to do so.

Egypt probably fears, on good evidence, that the expulsions would be permanent. They do not see that as a desirable result of the ethnic cleansing. Do you?

maximus meridius wrote: 3 Nov 2023, 1:14pm

roubaixtuesday wrote: 3 Nov 2023, 1:09pm

maximus meridius wrote: 3 Nov 2023, 1:06pm
Where did I say that those countries should take "millions of refugees"? Yours is a strawman argument. What I was commenting on was the treatment of Palestinian refugees in those countries.

Ah, so you don't think it's necessary for neighbouring countries to take more refugees from Gaza?

Seemed to be what you were saying here.

viewtopic.php?p=1806371#p1806371

Some do, some don't. I think. Egypt, at the moment, seems very resistant to taking refugees from Gaza, despite being the best placed, at this moment in time to do so.

Egypt doesn't want to be complicit in ethnic cleansing, or have responsibility forced on it which it feels is rightly Israels.

There's also the practicality of housing hundreds of thousands of people in a desert, in a region of Egypt which is by all accounts pretty lawless and far from central authority.

Without commenting on whether ultimately that's all right or wrong, I think it's possible to sympathise with the position.

mattheus wrote: 3 Nov 2023, 11:30am
Perfectly reasonable to comment on the latter.

But to choose 1930s Germany as your comparison seems deliberatly provocative; why pick them, when human tribes have persecuted each-other for millenia since coming down from the trees?

Likewise, the choice of the word 'untermenschen' seems transparently offensive; the Nazis were not the first culture to treat another race as beneath them.

Nothing deliberate. The reasoning is (I feel) sound.

Firstly, look at the systematic and institutionalised stripping of assets and rights in Israel for Palestinians. It can be compared to pre-WW2 Nazi Germany.

Secondly, the experience of WW2 is still very much present within the Jewish Psyche. I fully understand that and what happened to them (as a people) is beyond comprehension. But given that atrocities enacted on them have (it could be argued) been something the State of Israel has engaged in. I make the comparison on the basis of pattern of behaviour, not magnitude or even philosophical intent. I don't for a second believe that there is anyone in power in Israel who wants to actually wipe out the Palestinian race. But the effect of levelling Gaza, whilst killing ten thousand people and pushing out the remainder does rather have the same net effect.

And thirdly, time periods. Nazi Germany ended at almost the very same time Israel was formed. The demise of one was the final catalyst for the creation of the other.


Fundamentally, I would just like to see peace in the middle east. I fully understand the rage that Israelis feel after Oct 7th, but it has to be understood that the increasingly hard-line, right wing attitude of the Israeli government created a desperation so deep amongst Palestinians that extremism finds a very easy foothold.

roubaixtuesday wrote: 3 Nov 2023, 1:19pm

maximus meridius wrote: 3 Nov 2023, 1:14pm

roubaixtuesday wrote: 3 Nov 2023, 1:09pm

Ah, so you don't think it's necessary for neighbouring countries to take more refugees from Gaza?

Seemed to be what you were saying here.

viewtopic.php?p=1806371#p1806371

Some do, some don't. I think. Egypt, at the moment, seems very resistant to taking refugees from Gaza, despite being the best placed, at this moment in time to do so.

Egypt doesn't want to be complicit in ethnic cleansing, or have responsibility forced on it which it feels is rightly Israels.

There's also the practicality of housing hundreds of thousands of people in a desert, in a region of Egypt which is by all accounts pretty lawless and far from central authority.

Without commenting on whether ultimately that's all right or wrong, I think it's possible to sympathise with the position.

Yes, quite possibly, and as you say, understandable.

And yes, you're right, many countries in that part of the world have "taken" many Palestinians refugees.

Apologies, you are right, I should have been more precise in my description of how Palestinian refugees are treated, if accepted, by neighbouring countries. Though I think my general point still stands, that Palestinian refugees are treated is, let's say variable, and frequently bad. Jordan, after all, had a whole civicl war with the PLO.

I think sometimes the miserable condition of Palestinians, in wherever they are, serves a political or propaganda purpose, whether intentionally or not. As does the existence of the state of Israel.

Anyway, must go. I have actual paid work to do.

For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it’s blown up in our faces
The premier’s policy of treating the terror group as a partner, at the expense of Abbas and Palestinian statehood, has resulted in wounds that will take Israel years to heal from

For years, the various governments led by Benjamin Netanyahu took an approach that divided power between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank — bringing Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas to his knees while making moves that propped up the Hamas terror group.

The idea was to prevent Abbas — or anyone else in the Palestinian Authority’s West Bank government — from advancing toward the establishment of a Palestinian state.

Thus, amid this bid to impair Abbas, Hamas was upgraded from a mere terror group to an organization with which Israel held indirect negotiations via Egypt, and one that was allowed to receive infusions of cash from abroad.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years ... our-faces/

maximus meridius wrote: 3 Nov 2023, 1:14pm ...
Some do, some don't. I think. Egypt, at the moment, seems very resistant to taking refugees from Gaza, despite being the best placed, at this moment in time to do so.

An article outlining the reason behind Egypts resistance to taking large numbers of refugees

And to summarise the article

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/02/why-egypt-has-not-fully-opened-its-gaza-border-for-fleeing-palestinians wrote:...
Sisi said at the Cairo peace summit on 21 October that the world must never condone the use of human suffering to force people into displacement. “Egypt has affirmed, and is reiterating, its vehement rejection of the forced displacement of the Palestinians and their transfer to Egyptian lands in Sinai, as this will mark the last gasp in the liquidation of the Palestinian cause, shatter the dream of an independent Palestinian state, and squander the struggle of the Palestinian people and that of the Arab and Islamic peoples over the course of the Palestinian cause that has endured for 75 years,” he said.
...
...Palestinians fear a repeat of what they call the Nakba, or catastrophe – the expulsion of 700,000 Palestinians in 1948 after the creation of Israel.
...
It appears also that Egypt does not want to repeat the experience of Lebanon and Jordan, which have been housing Palestinian refugees for decades..
...

I can appreciate fears that once ejected from Gaza, Palestinians would not be allowed to return so would risk facing years in tents in the Sinai. And many countries these days seem to be providing less than minimum for refugees so stuck in the desert with no home to return to under the care of foreign Governments trying to reduce costs ... not going to be a good solution.

Ian

The Israel Government has complained that they had noone to negotiate with.
This is why.

. In March 2019, Netanyahu told his Likud colleagues: “Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas … This is part of our strategy – to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank.”

Prime minister for most of the last 15 years, Netanyahu has been an enabler of Hamas, building up the organisation, letting it rule Gaza unhindered – save for brief, periodic military operations against it – and allowing funds from its Gulf patrons to keep it flush. Netanyahu liked the idea of the Palestinians as a house divided – Fatah in the West Bank, Hamas in Gaza – because it allowed him to insist that there was no Palestinian partner he could do business with. That meant no peace process, no prospect of a Palestinian state, and no demand for Israeli territorial concessions.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... e-minister

Jon in Sweden wrote: 3 Nov 2023, 1:21pm And thirdly, time periods. Nazi Germany ended at almost the very same time Israel was formed. The demise of one was the final catalyst for the creation of the other.

Well I never - that hadn't even occured to me. And you're right! Isn't history queer, the way all these things join up.

Thanks for pointing that out

One perspective.

"One grim milestone is fast approaching. The United Nations (UN) says around 9,700 civilians have been killed in Ukraine since the full-scale Russian invasion 21 months ago.

Some of the Palestinian dead would have been part of Hamas. But even if that proportion is as high as 10%, which is unlikely, it means that Israel is on course to have killed as many Palestinian civilians in just over a month than Russia has killed in Ukraine since February 2022."
(BBC)

Here is an interesting and disturbing analysis.

Benjamin Netanyahu failed Israel

We can now be sure: His policy of repressing Palestinians doesn’t make Israelis safe.

https://www.vox.com/23910085/netanyahu- ... ar-history

Pebble wrote: 3 Nov 2023, 8:47am not sure it can be compared to Ukraine, Russia clearly invaded their country - for a comparison we would need protests about the Ukrainians fighting back.

Israel invaded when it took Golan heights and AFAIK at least part of the west Bank.

The difference between Israel and the other Arab on Arab conflicts is that those places were undemocratic basket cases at the time and were in state of war. Israel had periods of peace and democracy until Netanyahu joining up with the only groups who'd join with him such as extremist zionist and right wing parties. Corruption isn't an issue if it will support your illegal zionist /settler pov. If I was Israelis I'd hope we'd not be compared to Yemen and Syria personally. Says how bad Israel is that it's compared against Yemen!

djnotts wrote: 3 Nov 2023, 2:08pm One perspective.

"One grim milestone is fast approaching. The United Nations (UN) says around 9,700 civilians have been killed in Ukraine since the full-scale Russian invasion 21 months ago.

Some of the Palestinian dead would have been part of Hamas. But even if that proportion is as high as 10%, which is unlikely, it means that Israel is on course to have killed as many Palestinian civilians in just over a month than Russia has killed in Ukraine since February 2022."
(BBC)

I agree the numbers are grim, but I think those are confirmed deaths in Ukraine controlled territory. IIRC the death toll in Mariupol alone was almost certainly well in excess of that.

See for instance

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/mo ... 023-02-21/

Tangled Metal wrote: 3 Nov 2023, 3:53pm

Pebble wrote: 3 Nov 2023, 8:47am not sure it can be compared to Ukraine, Russia clearly invaded their country - for a comparison we would need protests about the Ukrainians fighting back.

Israel invaded when it took Golan heights and AFAIK at least part of the west Bank.

The difference between Israel and the other Arab on Arab conflicts is that those places were undemocratic basket cases at the time and were in state of war. Israel had periods of peace and democracy until Netanyahu joining up with the only groups who'd join with him such as extremist zionist and right wing parties. Corruption isn't an issue if it will support your illegal zionist /settler pov. If I was Israelis I'd hope we'd not be compared to Yemen and Syria personally. Says how bad Israel is that it's compared against Yemen!

the comparison was with the views of the far left, how they seem to turn a blind eye to Arabs killing each other in the hundreds of thousands. Then when Israel tries to defend itself the protests and hatred are soon out in force.

So back to my earlier question, why is this the case, why do we sometimes not care? Is it the media that leads us, or do the media just follow popular opinion and we get stuck into some feedback loop.