Violent conflicts.

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Biospace
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Joined: 24 Jun 2019, 12:23pm

Re: Violent conflicts.

Post by Biospace »

pwa wrote: 3 Nov 2023, 6:29pm If declaring the current Israeli government extremist and barbaric is deemed anti-Semitic, we will all be deemed anti-Semitic soon. I have just been watching BBC coverage of the plight of civilians in Gaza, and it is appalling. Appalling on a scale way beyond the massacre committed by Hamas on October 7th. So decent people must stand up and say that what is happening is not justified by October 7th. Civilised people do not respond to a massacre by committing another massacre, only bigger. Civilised people do not show such callous indifference to the suffering and death of children. There is no excuse for this.

Time for our own politicians to develop backbones, I think.
[My emboldening]

I very much agree, what the Israelis are doing is beyond words, indeed there is no excuse. Do you believe neutral onlookers thought similarly as the British and Americans bombed Hamburg and Dresden in the way they did, or the Americans used nuclear weapons in Japan?
mattheus
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Location: Western Europe

Re: Violent conflicts.

Post by mattheus »

Biospace wrote: 7 Nov 2023, 1:16pm
pwa wrote: 3 Nov 2023, 6:29pm If declaring the current Israeli government extremist and barbaric is deemed anti-Semitic, we will all be deemed anti-Semitic soon. I have just been watching BBC coverage of the plight of civilians in Gaza, and it is appalling. Appalling on a scale way beyond the massacre committed by Hamas on October 7th. So decent people must stand up and say that what is happening is not justified by October 7th. Civilised people do not respond to a massacre by committing another massacre, only bigger. Civilised people do not show such callous indifference to the suffering and death of children. There is no excuse for this.

Time for our own politicians to develop backbones, I think.
[My emboldening]

I very much agree, what the Israelis are doing is beyond words, indeed there is no excuse. Do you believe neutral onlookers thought similarly as the British and Americans bombed Hamburg and Dresden in the way they did, or the Americans used nuclear weapons in Japan?
It's true that Two Wrongs Don't Make A Right. But this is - effectively - war, and perhaps the ultimate example of
"What did you expect to happen?"
Biospace
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Joined: 24 Jun 2019, 12:23pm

Re: Violent conflicts.

Post by Biospace »

mattheus wrote: 7 Nov 2023, 3:09pm It's true that Two Wrongs Don't Make A Right. But this is - effectively - war, and perhaps the ultimate example of
"What did you expect to happen?"
Indeed. Which is perhaps why much greater efforts ought to be made to sort out simmering discontent and sporadic outbreaks of conflict instead of permitting them to fester for decades, then turn into something like this.

Roosevelt said, "In politics, nothing happens by accident. If it happens, you can bet it was planned that way."
Mike Sales
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Re: Violent conflicts.

Post by Mike Sales »

mattheus wrote: 7 Nov 2023, 3:09pm
It's true that Two Wrongs Don't Make A Right. But this is - effectively - war, and perhaps the ultimate example of
"What did you expect to happen?"
It is a very assymetric war.
What I expect to happen, based on Israel's actions in the West Bank, and the words of Belazel Smotrich, is for Israel to occupy Gaza and encourage settlers to move in. They will 'encourage' Palestinians to move out.
Militant Palestinians will attempt vicious but ineffective resistance. This will help justify further attacks on Palestinians, by armed settlers and the IDF.
In 2017, Israeli far-right parliamentarian Bezalel Smotrich proposed what he termed a “decisive plan” to end the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Smotrich, who is now serving as finance minister in Netanyahu’s cabinet, argued (correctly) that the root of the conflict was competing claims to the same land from two distinct national groups. But, unlike his centrist peers, Smotrich claimed that these ambitions were incommensurable: that no territorial compromise could ever be reached between Israelis and Palestinians. In such a zero-sum conflict, one side has to win and the other has to lose.

The key to Israel winning such a total victory, he wrote, is simple: Break the Palestinians’ spirit.

“Terrorism derives from hope — a hope to weaken us,” Smotrich argued. “The statement that the Arab yearning for national expression in the Land of Israel cannot be ‘repressed’ is incorrect.”

Doing this, he continued, begins by annexing the West Bank and rapidly expanding Jewish settlements there. Once Israel has declared its intention to never let that land go, and created realities on the ground that make its withdrawal unimaginable, the Palestinians will reconcile themselves to the new reality — accept a second-class form of citizenship, leave voluntarily, or attempt violent resistance and be crushed.

Smotrich has used his time in Netanyahu’s cabinet to try to implement this plan — working both to de facto annex the West Bank and to rapidly expand Jewish settlement. The result has been the exact opposite of what Smotrich thought would happen: Atrocities by emboldened settler extremists ignited Palestinian anger. Atrocities committed by Palestinians led to settler retaliation, creating an unstable situation requiring a significant redeployment of Israel Defense Forces resources to the West Bank — whose raids themselves became a source of Palestinian grievance.

And that, per the Washington Post, is why those troops weren’t on Gaza’s border. Israel’s forces, who should have been defending against terrorists in Gaza, had been dragged to the West Bank as a consequence, at least in part, of the far right’s ideological project.
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
pwa
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Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Violent conflicts.

Post by pwa »

Biospace wrote: 7 Nov 2023, 1:16pm
pwa wrote: 3 Nov 2023, 6:29pm If declaring the current Israeli government extremist and barbaric is deemed anti-Semitic, we will all be deemed anti-Semitic soon. I have just been watching BBC coverage of the plight of civilians in Gaza, and it is appalling. Appalling on a scale way beyond the massacre committed by Hamas on October 7th. So decent people must stand up and say that what is happening is not justified by October 7th. Civilised people do not respond to a massacre by committing another massacre, only bigger. Civilised people do not show such callous indifference to the suffering and death of children. There is no excuse for this.

Time for our own politicians to develop backbones, I think.
[My emboldening]

I very much agree, what the Israelis are doing is beyond words, indeed there is no excuse. Do you believe neutral onlookers thought similarly as the British and Americans bombed Hamburg and Dresden in the way they did, or the Americans used nuclear weapons in Japan?
That is an interesting point, and brings me back to something I said earlier. Nations are a creation of human beings, and we are fallible. We make mistakes. And when a nation has itself been attacked, and perhaps experienced the shock of a massacre, for a time grief and anger will take over from calm reasoning and mercy. That is in our nature. What the Allies did to Hamburg and Hiroshima was probably the inevitable result of what the Germans and Japanese had done in the years preceding. As night follows day. The Allies were nations changed by the horrors of war. And a month ago Israel, already with a collective outlook shaped partly by trauma, suffered a great shock with the infliction of a horrific massacre by Hamas. Only an idiot would expect Israel's response to be calm and measured. That isn't how human beings work. The standard human response to that is to lash out and stamp on the enemy, oblivious to the suffering of bystanders. And that is the psyche of Israel right now.

So we, as detached observers, can help matters by trying to steer Israel away from this poorly targeted lashing out, and try to get them to look around and see the injustice of their own actions. Like someone trying to steer a drunken friend away from a fight in a pub carpark.
mattheus
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Location: Western Europe

Re: Violent conflicts.

Post by mattheus »

pwa wrote: 8 Nov 2023, 7:13am ...
The standard human response to that is to lash out and stamp on the enemy, oblivious to the suffering of bystanders. And that is the psyche of Israel right now.

So we, as detached observers, can help matters by trying to steer Israel away from this poorly targeted lashing out, and try to get them to look around and see the injustice of their own actions. Like someone trying to steer a drunken friend away from a fight in a pub carpark.
That's an excellent analogy (not sure if the right term, sorry ... )

Your suggestion is more productive than:
- calling a meeting, and declaring your friend "bang out of order", or
- cheering his opponents on.
djnotts
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Location: Nottingham

Re: Violent conflicts.

Post by djnotts »

pwa :"The Allies were nations changed by the horrors of war. "

Which war? They knew all about the horrors of WW1, but that hadn't changed them. WW2 didn't change them either, nor the sub-"world" wars that have continued to follow.
Neither leaders nor masses have done anything to "change". The "masters of war" continue to rule, it's called capitalism. Rubbing hands with glee as more and more big guns demanded in e.g. Ukraine and Israel .
pwa
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Re: Violent conflicts.

Post by pwa »

djnotts wrote: 8 Nov 2023, 9:35am pwa :"The Allies were nations changed by the horrors of war. "

Which war? They knew all about the horrors of WW1, but that hadn't changed them. WW2 didn't change them either, nor the sub-"world" wars that have continued to follow.
Neither leaders nor masses have done anything to "change". The "masters of war" continue to rule, it's called capitalism. Rubbing hands with glee as more and more big guns demanded in e.g. Ukraine and Israel .
The way people were thinking in the US was changed overnight by the attack on Pearl Harbor. The way people in the UK were thinking was changed by the Blitz. People don't continue to think coolly and rationally when they are under threat.
Stradageek
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Re: Violent conflicts.

Post by Stradageek »

I think it was an Israeli peace activist whose peace activist parents were two of the 1400 killed in the Hamas attack who said:

You can't stop people killing babies by killing babies :(
Biospace
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Joined: 24 Jun 2019, 12:23pm

Re: Violent conflicts.

Post by Biospace »

pwa wrote: 8 Nov 2023, 9:45am The way people were thinking in the US was changed overnight by the attack on Pearl Harbor. The way people in the UK were thinking was changed by the Blitz. People don't continue to think coolly and rationally when they are under threat.
I wonder who is in charge of our military strategy, a War Cabinet with many military advisors or "it's the Sun what won it"? Or are the media and the Government all guided by the same forces, with dissent either ignored or ridiculed?

How is public opinion adjusted by what the press and other media report on, how they report it and those events and details which go unreported. We should never underestimate the power of the media, I very much doubt Herr Hitler could have whipped up the fright and misjudgment - like a mass hypnosis - in the German population (one of the most advanced, wealthiest, creative and industrial nations in the world leading up to the two 'World Wars') without the power of newspaper and radio.

Add to those controls today's television programming and the millions of screens connected to the internet through which ever larger chunks of people's lives are controlled. Are we laying ourselves open to the sorts of control the Germans (mostly unwittingly) experienced, or is the British public much less vulnerable to that sort of thing?
djnotts
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Re: Violent conflicts.

Post by djnotts »

Biospace wrote: 8 Nov 2023, 1:37pm
pwa wrote: 8 Nov 2023, 9:45am
.............. Are we laying ourselves open to the sorts of control the Germans (mostly unwittingly) experienced, or is the British public much less vulnerable to that sort of thing?
Yes and no respectively. The proposed new definitions of "extremism" enough on their own to condemn maybe 25% of the population to being non-citizens.
Biospace
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Re: Violent conflicts.

Post by Biospace »

djnotts wrote: 8 Nov 2023, 1:58pm
Biospace wrote: 8 Nov 2023, 1:37pm .............. Are we laying ourselves open to the sorts of control the Germans (mostly unwittingly) experienced, or is the British public much less vulnerable to that sort of thing?
Yes and no respectively. The proposed new definitions of "extremism" enough on their own to condemn maybe 25% of the population to being non-citizens.
Yup. There's a whole raft of odd legislation being pushed through, not least the WHO's Pandemic Preparedness Treaty or whatever they're calling it this month. If you read the text, there are some extremely odd amendments of previous agreements.
Jdsk
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Re: Violent conflicts.

Post by Jdsk »

For those who aren't already familiar with conspiracy theories related to the WHO pandemic agreement:

"WHO pandemic accord: full adherence to the principle of sovereignty":
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanc ... 4/fulltext

"Fact Check-The WHO is not planning to implement a ‘pandemic treaty’ that would strip member states of sovereignty":
https://www.reuters.com/article/factche ... SL2N2XH0KA

Jonathan
Biospace
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Joined: 24 Jun 2019, 12:23pm

Re: Violent conflicts.

Post by Biospace »

People in positions of power and influence sometimes conspire, so why should people not flag up behaviour which appears odd? It's part of a highly-tuned, long-lived democratic process in which people question others and their intents, part of a system which preserves hard-earned freedoms which are far more easily lost than gained.

Banding about such terms as 'conspiracy theory' when somebody points out a few things which don't correlate with what we are told is the accepted thinking requires some examination. There are some pertinent points here, https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/ful ... josp.12432

Its reach has extended greatly since a more pejorative use was encouraged by the CIA in the sixties, somewhat discredited through lazy overuse, all the more so when these supposed theories are proven to be reality.

You leapt on nothing more than a mention of 'odd legislation', jumping to conclusions of the implications. I have no idea what the WHO is thinking, but a broad spectrum of people are raising questions regarding their change in emphasis.

Human Rights Watch have this to say, https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/07/dra ... ect-rights

This is the WHO document in question, https://apps.who.int/gb/wgihr/pdf_files ... ion-en.pdf
djnotts
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Re: Violent conflicts.

Post by djnotts »

I'd certainly "trust" HRW over WHO. Interesting.
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